Bosnian Pyramids Gain International Recognition

[MrGamma]

I've been waiting to hear more about this conference regarding the Bosnian Pyramids.

 

This article lists the following participants in the The First International Scientific Conference on the Bosnian Pyramids.

 

http://www.philipcoppens.com/nap_icbp.html

 

I followed it in from this website...

 

http://www.bosnianpyramid.com/index_Files/News.html

 

It mentions that the following people have validated the dig site and all members at the conference were in agreeance that the dig should be continued.

 

 

"The conference was opened in the presence of the vice-president of the Federation Spomenka Micic, the minister for tourism of the federal government Nevenko Herceg, the Ambassador of AR Egypt Akhmed Khatab, as well as other dignitaries.

On August 29, 2008, these were the conclusions the scientific conference reached. The Committee for Recommendation consisted of:

- dr. Nabil Swelim, Egyptologists and archaeologist, President of the ICBP 2008

- dr. Oleg Khavroshkin, geophysicist, Chairman of the ICBP Scientific Committee

- dr. Alaa Shaheen, archaeologist, Dean of the Faculty of Archaeology at the Cairo University

- dr. Hassan El-Saady, historian, vice-dean of the Faculty of Arts at the Alexandria University

- dr. Anna Pazdur, physician, Lab for the radiocarbon dating, Silesian University, Gliwice, Poland

- dr. Mona Haggag, archaeologist, Secretary of the Archaeological Society of Alexandria, Egypt

- dr. Ivan Šimatovic, President of the Organizational Committee, Croatia

- dr. Mostafa El-Abbadi, historian, Founder of the modern Library in Alexandria (Bibliotheca Alexandrina), Egypt

- Chris Norman, planner, Edinburgh, Great Britain

- Dr. Mohamed Ibrahim Aly, Egyptologist and archaeologist, Faculty of Art at the University Ein-Shams, Cairo

- Semir Osmanagic, Founder of the “Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun” Foundation and Vice-President of the ICBP 2008.

All prepared the Draft of Recommendations on August 28, which was approved by all participants on August 29 at the plenary session."

 

 

 

 

Additionally the article closes on this note...

 

"That the pyramids might be an unknown dimension to the Vinca culture is a “cautious” approach, and, in fact, the conclusions of carbon dating of a piece of wood recovered from the Ravne tunnels were presented by Andrew Lawler and Anna Pazdur. Though they noted that it was a unique artefact (radio carbon dates preferentially being done over a range of artefacts, not just one, so that a range of dates is arrived at), the conclusion was that the piece of wood was 34,000 years old – which could, in theory, be the date when these pyramids were created. If true (and only further digging will tell), then the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids will not merely change a paradigm, but completely shatter it. To be continued, in 2010."

 

 

I am interested in your criticisms...

[TrickyPeach]

Wikipedia on Bosnian pyramids:

"Scientific investigations of the site show there is no pyramid.[1][2][3] Additionally, scientists have criticised the Bosnian authorities for supporting the pyramid claim saying, "This scheme is a cruel hoax on an unsuspecting public and has no place in the world of genuine science."[4]

 

Osmanagić has claimed that the dig involved an international team of archaeologists from Australia, Austria, Bosnia, Scotland and Slovenia.[5] However, many archaeologists he named have stated they had not agreed to participate and were never at the site.[6]"

 

It seems controversial. I think I smell hoax.

[MrGamma]

I don't think it's hoax. I mean... that is rather paranoid thinking. Like subscribing to a conspiracy theory. I've come to accept that the majority of websites which are critiques of the pyramids are in fact pseudo cranks themselves.

 

If anything... Perhaps it's overambitious people who have misinterpreted it wrong.

 

This is an interesting alternative theory regarding the pyramids being an old roman fortification of sorts.

 

http://omerbashich.blogspot.com/

 

I chopped this still frame out of a video. Unfortunately the video came from Youtube and I have no idea if it is from the pyramid site or from a location elsewhere.

 

 

[TrickyPeach]

I don't think it's hoax. I mean... that is rather paranoid thinking. Like subscribing to a conspiracy theory. I've come to accept that the majority of websites which are critiques of the pyramids are in fact pseudo cranks themselves.

 

If anything... Perhaps it's overambitious people who have misinterpreted it wrong.

 

This is an interesting alternative theory regarding the pyramids being an old roman fortification of sorts.

 

By hoax I mean, they aren't pyramids. At least not in the classical sense.

 

The much-touted “ancient inscriptions” seem not to be ancient at all. I was told by a reliable source that the inscriptions were not there when members of the “pyramid team” initially entered the tunnels less than two years ago. The “ancient inscriptions” had been added since, perhaps non-maliciously, or perhaps as a downright hoax.[22]

 

In return Dr Schoch's website documents "extreme damage being done by the way the excavations are being performed," and accuses Osmanagić of launching "a deliberate smear campaign."[24]

 

I don't see any reason to believe they are in fact pyramids, they might be archaeological sites but they are not pyramids as far as I can see.

Have you read the Wikipedia article?

[MrGamma]

I don't see any reason to believe they are in fact pyramids, they might be archaeological sites but they are not pyramids as far as I can see.

Have you read the Wikipedia article?

 

Yes... I've been following it since 2006... Their was a time when I was pretty convinced it was some crazy guy who was seeing things.

 

Now they have PHD's confirming the work. I sort of have to take what they say at face value. People seem to have changed thier tune a little bit now that the summer has ended and they have turned up more stuff.

 

Like that article says... there is enough stuff there to prove it is man made ( or it is enough for to go on to connect the structures with the romans ). Now they are trying to figure out who made it.

 

So... now I'm back to square one thinking it's some crazy guy who has found roman settlements.

 

But... if I am to take what is being reported to be true. Then I would be convinced that a pyramid complex is there.

 

In any event... here is a bitter, angry and extremely skeptical person. Compare how they talk about the dig site compared to the person who gives the roman settlement theory.

 

http://irna.lautre.net/

 

I don't think arguments like these hold any weight. A website devoted to debunking the whole theory and nothing but makes me think... that they think... the Bosnian Pyramids are a hoax conspiracy.

 

 

In any event... it's wait and see... jmo...

Edited October 2, 2008 by MrGamma
multiple post merged

[TrickyPeach]

In any event... it's wait and see... jmo...

Sound advice

If anything if people really want to know what's going on reading the PhDs you mentioned (link please?), I'm assuming you have looked at them? Those would be enlightening, bearing in mind who wrote them, when and what kind of university awarded the PhD.

[MrGamma]

Sound advice

If anything if people really want to know what's going on reading the PhDs you mentioned (link please?), I'm assuming you have looked at them? Those would be enlightening, bearing in mind who wrote them, when and what kind of university awarded the PhD.

 

This is the list of people...

 

http://www.icbp.ba/index.php/Presidency.html

 

 

Notice how the guy who founded the pyramids got bumped to the bottom of the list?

[TrickyPeach]

This is the list of people...

 

http://www.icbp.ba/index.php/Presidency.html

 

 

Notice how the guy who founded the pyramids got bumped to the bottom of the list?

 

I think you are seeing something not there, you are reading too much into the bumping to the bottom of the list thing. I mean there are 2 columns, being at the bottom makes him more obvious since his contact details are 3 lines.

How is this a PhD thesis?

 

 

 

We, the participants of the First International Scientific Conference „Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids" (ICBP 2008) conclude:

 

1. Work at the archaeological location „Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids" in Visoko, Bosnia and Herzegovina, is an important geo-archaeological and epigraphical research that requires further multidisciplinary scientific research which should answer the origin of the Bosnian pyramidal hills and the extensive underground tunnel network as well as other archaeological sites in the vicinity;

2. ICBP Conference recommends that Second International Scientific Conference about the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids should be held in Sarajevo in two years (2010) and gather experts in pyramid research from all over the world;

3. ICBP Conference introduce the initiative to establish Centre for Pyramid studies with headquarter in Sarajevo;

4. ICBP Conference recommends universities in Bosnia and Herzegovina to establish study at the graduate level for archaeology as a support to the reasearch project „Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids".

 

Doesn't really seem conclusive on any level. All it's basically saying is: we need to look into this more. Also it calls them hills (Bosnian pyramidal hills).

 

I think this pretty much shows it's being over hyped to say the least.

Edited October 2, 2008 by TrickyPeach

[MrGamma]

Doesn't really seem conclusive on any level. All it's basically saying is: we need to look into this more. Also it calls them hills (Bosnian pyramidal hills).

 

I think this pretty much shows it's being over hyped to say the least.

 

 

I agree... if it were conclusive there would b no reason to continue the dig correct?

 

If you want reports from some of these people you can find them here.

 

http://www.icbp.ba/index.php/Reports/Reports/

 

From what I have gathered thus far. The president of the organization has come out of retirement and has a distinguished history. This gentleman however seems to have the most impressive credentials I have seen belonging to anyone of the organization.

 

http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10717

[Sisyphus]

I agree... if it were conclusive there would b no reason to continue the dig correct?

 

Of course there would. It's still a significant archeological site (possibly very important), and I don't think anyone is denying that. The issue is with calling these hills "pyramids," which to me, frankly, seems quite ridiculous. It would be one of the most extraordinary claims ever made in archeology, and there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it whatsoever. It seems to me that the only real difference between this guy and a typical crank is that he's better at getting publicity.

[TrickyPeach]

It seems to me that the only real difference between this guy and a typical crank is that he's better at getting publicity.

 

Or not, I haven't really heard any of this anywhere else, on the other hand most crazy people with some "facts" or factoids, like a hill shaped like a pyramid in this case, do get publicity because people love a mystery and a reason to speculate about it. Like we all have just proved

[MrGamma]

Of course there would. It's still a significant archeological site (possibly very important), and I don't think anyone is denying that. The issue is with calling these hills "pyramids," which to me, frankly, seems quite ridiculous. It would be one of the most extraordinary claims ever made in archeology, and there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it whatsoever. It seems to me that the only real difference between this guy and a typical crank is that he's better at getting publicity.

 

Yes... I see where your coming from. Right now the conclusion appears to be that they are man made structure from what I know. So the conclusion is to dig further.

 

As to the actual fact that they are pyramids. I am not a pyramid expert. What I used to dismiss as pseudo-science I am now beginning to re-evaluate.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1024779.stm

 

If in fact this person who discovered them is correct. I may need to re-evaluate the legitimacy of the methods he used to discover and validate them in his own mind.

 

Right now... I am more concerned about what the geo-physicists and archaeologists are saying as they are more established, with better credentials and far outrank the one who made the claim originally.

 

In any event... it is far from conclusive... it is only perhaps the beginning.

 

I am just a little upset that 2 years ago the enormous amount of scrutiny may have in fact made this project conclusive when it wasn't.

 

 

http://www.google.com/trends?q=bosnian+pyramids

 

(sometimes google kicks out with thier stats. This is by no means accurate to my knowledge )

 

Or not, I haven't really heard any of this anywhere else, on the other hand most crazy people with some "facts" or factoids, like a hill shaped like a pyramid in this case, do get publicity because people love a mystery and a reason to speculate about it. Like we all have just proved

 

I don't think that it's fair to dismiss archeology/geology as factoids. Speculation is where everyone begins. It's the first step towards learning more.

Edited October 2, 2008 by MrGamma
multiple post merged

[TrickyPeach]

I don't think that it's fair to dismiss archeology/geology as factoids. Speculation is where everyone begins. It's the first step towards learning more.

 

I don't dismiss archeology/geology as factoids, I'm sure any archaeological/geological findings on the site may be interesting and date back thousands of years.

 

What I do think is bad is the jumping to conclusions attitude of some people and over hyping stuff just because you are a famous person or because you can... a PhD or any qualification does not prove you are sensible, wise, clever, selfless, truthful etc all it does is prove you have a PhD. (Not meaning to undermine PhDs what so ever.) But just because you have one or two, doesn't mean you are always right, just because the man is an expert doesn't make him omniscient and we should criticise him until he brings forth evidence to back up his claims fully, I'm not saying he is a liar, I'm just not willing to accept everything he claims as the truth yet.

 

Maybe I'm too cynical and too critical, more than most people, I don't know. I think you should be weary, it's better to be undecided until you can be sure than decide and then find out you were being hasty.

[MrGamma]

What I do think is bad is the jumping to conclusions attitude of some people and over hyping stuff just because you are a famous person or because you can...

 

Agreed... I can understand this. It would seem there are emotions which can obfuscate and otherwise hurt the scientific process.

 

I understand the whole concept of pyramid-mania... I do however have to ask myself that if this were discovered in the US if it would have been met with as much skepticism or if it would have been welcomed opened armed.

 

Imo... every theory has merit and only rational explanations should ever take the spotlight. International media seems to hold this principle in high regard.

 

If in fact there are pyramids there. This is a great example of how of the internet community at large can be irresponsible when attempting to discredit theories purely based on speculations and arm chair analysis.

 

Maybe I'm too cynical and too critical, more than most people, I don't know.

 

You have every right to be. I however feel that some have made it their life mission to discredit and otherwise thwart the scientific process. I think we have all fallen subject to this. There is still much to be unanswered. There may be no pyramids and there might be pyramids. This is the stance which every critical analysis should have taken in my opinion.

 

Positives and Negatives. Too much of this entire story has been met with heavy biased attitudes and the last two years of evidence is all over the web. Only recently have I found 1 single non-baised (non-anti-pyramid but rather scientific) website which I would consider scientific outside of the dig site organization themselves.

 

http://omerbashich.blogspot.com/

 

ADDITION:

 

So I have finally decided to go and check out their side of the story. I have found three interesting claims of evidence ( without resorting to images ) and I am curious if anyone can vouch for the reasoning behind the conclusions.

 

 

1. There are no natural drainage paths down two sides of the pyramid hill. Suggesting there are "hollows" in the hill.

 

2. The sandstone on top of the hill is significantly harder than the softer sandstone towards the bottom. Logically this is supposed to suggest that it was quarried. In nature the sandstone is soft/porous on top and and gets harder the deeper you go.

 

3. Some conglomerates are water resistant. The water will bead at the surface and it will not absorb into the rock while other conglomerates in the very near vicinity will absorb the water. I am not sure if this is meant to suggest that it was man made due to nature being incapable of producing such a material or if it to suggest different conglomerates where man made to serve different purposes.

 

4. There are preliminary claims of Gamma Radiation Spectra being used to identify the natural location of stone blocks versus a blocks which have been moved from their original location. The blocks have been identified as being moved. How does one do this with Gamma Radiation?

 

( Note: I do no have papers yet to back these claims but welcome any criticisms regarding these found speculations )

Edited October 3, 2008 by MrGamma
multiple post merged

[TrickyPeach]

If in fact there are pyramids there. This is a great example of how of the internet community at large can be irresponsible when attempting to discredit theories purely based on speculations and arm chair analysis.

 

Opinions on the internet are usually overrepresented, but in fact very rarely hold any valid real world worth, either fortunately or unfortunately.

[MrGamma]

Opinions on the internet are usually overrepresented, but in fact very rarely hold any valid real world worth, either fortunately or unfortunately.

 

I realize that. I have nothing to go on but to the source. The new guy in charge is a former commodore and holds three PHD's.

 

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/pyramids_of_egypt/nabil_swelim.php

 

Even the projects harshest critique recognizes his authority.

 

http://irna.lautre.net/Some-thoughts-about-Dr-Nabil.html

 

I am now trying to understand the arguments which some of it's supporters are bringing up.

 

I am particularly interested in this claim 2008. (did not come directly from Dr. Nabil)

 

"Prof. Muhamed Pasic of University of Zenica (Bosnia) is running the research. He claimed that the top of the sandstone at the Moon pyramid is harder than the rest of it. He told that to our guests from Egypt in September. However, at the same time, Civil Institute of Tuzla performed the test on the same sandstone plates concluding that material is extra hard, much harder than sandstone found nearby."

 

This is Dr.Nabil's report from 2007.

 

http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/downloads/newreports2008/DrSwelimReportFebruary2008.pdf

 

This is what he said at a press conference.

 

"We have the greatest pyramid in the world, here. Now we have to understand it"

 

http://www.icbp.ba/index.php/component/option,com_seyret/Itemid,26/task,videodirectlink/id,9/

[JohnB]

Hmmm.

 

I had written these off as wishful thinking, but I might have to reconsider.

 

The youtube vid is Mr. Osmanagic. I've always been worried about how the "tourism" card is heavily emphasised in presentations on the Bosnian Pyramids as this feeds my scepticism re ulterior motives. However it does make sense that if you are after funding in an economically depressed nation to emphasise the potential tourism benefits.

 

Reading through the links, etc I do note that the detractors are long on personal attack and rather short on evidence. Quoting Zawi Hawass on pre Egyptian pyramids is especially pointless. Nationalism wins over science every day for him. I notice Mr. Osmanagic is roundly criticised for his techniques, fair enough, however he is using the best techniques of the 19th and early 20th Century. I don't see people disregarding the work of early egyptologists because it doesn't come up to modern standards.

 

MrGamma, you can find more photos of the area and the dig through Panoramio on Google Earth.

 

TrickyPeach, there is nothing wrong with the term "Pyramid Hills" as it is used here. The term differentiates true pyramids which are built from the ground up from hills that have been carved into the shape of pyramids. While both are of human manufacture, it is sensible to have different terms for the different construction techniques.

 

Those with qualifications in the video seem certain of the human construction of the place and I guess they should know.

 

The gradualists however will not give this one up without a very dirty fight as it affects their entire worldview, not to mention reputations. Stay tuned for more fireworks.

 

For now though, I'm still filing this one under "Hmmmmm".