EU bans incandescent light bulbs

[bascule]

http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/10/11/eu-bans-incandescent-light-bulbs/

 

How progressive of them. I can only hope that America gets a government who would go for this kind of thing soon...

[Pangloss]

Why do you feel incandescent light bulbs should be banned? Can you state the case for us, please?

[Klaynos]

This could really mess up one of the experiments I demonstrate.... you need an incandescent bulb....

[iNow]

Why do you feel incandescent light bulbs should be banned? Can you state the case for us, please?

 

Too inefficient. I don't know if you've never been exposed to this information, but they are wasteful, and cause easily avoidable harm. The amount of energy being pulled off the grid that doesn't get used as light, but instead radiates as heat, is unacceptable.

 

The idea is to replace all incandescent light bulbs with compact flourescents. This will save on the order of 30% of energy use (which is HUGE), and hence put less demand on the grid for burning of coal and other fossil fuels. Since you seem not to know, you can better educate yourself on the topic at sites like this:

 

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=cfls.pr_cfls

 

 

 

Klaynos - One can be reasonably confident that certain minor exceptions will be allowed. I read the ban as applying to mass distribution and general use. I'm curious though... what kind of experiments are you demonstrating in your Easy Bake oven?

Edited October 13, 2008 by iNow
multiple post merged

[big314mp]

This seems slightly draconian.

 

Perhaps a tax on incandescent light bulbs, where all proceeds from the tax go to funding environmental efforts would be better placed? Something along the lines of what governments do with cigarettes, so that if a person wanted to use an incandescent bulb, they could choose to pay extra for the luxury (that extra being used to clean up the mess associated with the aforementioned bulb).

[bascule]

Why do you feel incandescent light bulbs should be banned? Can you state the case for us, please?

 

There are a multitude of alternatives which are three times as efficient or more: CFL, halogen, or LED. While any of these will save you money in the long run, the up-front cost is higher and thus people are wary of purchasing them.

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003590856_lightbulbs27.html

[Pangloss]

It's worth emphasizing that they're not mandating CFL, they're banning incandescents (as stated in the OP and above). Should better tech come along people can definitely opt for that; there's no slippery slope argument here.

 

I can understand the annoyance objection that some will have, but if you accept the basic premise of some level of regulation in society, this particular regulation makes perfect sense. It would encourage the last few hangers-on to make a switch that's actually in their best interests.

 

I think it would also affect certain businesses. I do some work with a company that installs those little motors that raise and lower a garage door, and each one comes with two easily-replaceable, standard-size light bulbs installed on the sides for lighting up the garage when you pull the car in. I've suggested several times that they replace the normal bulbs with CFL, but they cost three times as much and their customers (home builders, not home buyers) aren't interested, so they just keep shoving in good ol' 75-watters. A regulation like this would, of course, change that immediately.

[John Cuthber]

One thought that strikes me is that the CFLs take so long to warm up properly that you would have parked the car and gone inside before the garage lights came on.

Also, if I can't buy incandescent lamps I will have to replace the timer switches I use on some of my lights (they can't cope with CFL)- who pays for that?

[Klaynos]

Incandescents actually reduce energy used for heating

[YT2095]

my darkroom enlarger uses incandescents too, there isn`t a CFL of the same color spectrum or fast enough (which includes phosphor afterglow) that`s going to do the job.

it also voids the dimmer switches we use in the living room.

and what about the small 15-25W pin spot bulbs?

I can see lots of Very expensive Kitchen units having to be ripped out and re-wired!

[Sisyphus]

Incandescents actually reduce energy used for heating

 

Which works fine if you already have the heat on all day, every day.

 

Per the actual banning, though, I can't really say I'm entirely comfortable with it, but I can't fundamentally disagree with it. It does seem rather drastic, and I'm kind of dreading the inevitable libertarian backlash, but it will be beneficial overall, it is outlawing a specific thing (rather than mandating a specific thing), and it's not even that unusual. It seems of the same kind as emissions standards for cars. I know, I know: "Who am I to say what's beneficial, bla bla bla." Well, ultimately every law is doing that, no? "It's not hurting anyone but the user, therefore it's invasive." Maybe, but energy usage is closely tied to environmental and national security issues, which makes it quite a bit fuzzier.

Edited October 13, 2008 by Sisyphus

[iNow]

Extreme circumstances call for extreme measures. Hopefully they'll remove their craniums from their colons and ban petroleum as fuel, too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One thought that strikes me is that the CFLs take so long to warm up properly that you would have parked the car and gone inside before the garage lights came on.

Where are you buying your CFLs? In a time warp back to the 60s? All of mine turn on within 1 second.

 

 

 

 

it also voids the dimmer switches we use in the living room.

You also have Halogen available to you. I just finished installing a new halogen series in my hallway, and wired it on a dimmer switch. Works spendidly.

Edited October 13, 2008 by iNow
multiple post merged

[DrP]

 

You also have Halogen available to you. I just finished installing a new halogen series in my hallway, and wired it on a dimmer switch. Works spendidly.

 

Ha Ha Ha - we've just taken out our halogens and put up normal bulbs in our living room. They wern't giving enough light out (there were only 2 bulbs in the whole room). Strictly speaking we could have had more put in to project more light around - but 2 normal bulbs seem fine and suit our room better. Weve got a mixture of halogens, the low enery bulbs and normal bulbs around our place.

[Klaynos]

To answer the above question I read and then forgot to answer sorry! We need them for our experiments for a broad continuouse white light spectrum using a rayleigh reflectometer.

[John Cuthber]

"Which works fine if you already have the heat on all day, every day."

To the same degree that you have the lights on all day every day.

"Where are you buying your CFLs? In a time warp back to the 60s? All of mine turn on within 1 second."

They may fire up in a second or so, but they take a lot longer to warm up to full power.

does it take you up to 5 min to get out of the car?

 

 

http://genet.gelighting.com/LightProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=COMMERCIALSPECPAGE&PRODUCTCODE=19609

[YT2095]

but Halogen are still Incandescents and therefore subject to the same ban surely?

[Pangloss]

JohnCuthber, you promised me you would learn how to use quotes!

 

I've been using a CFL in my garage for the past year+, and never had a problem. I do use a more powerful one than normal -- a 100-watt equivalent (I forget what the actual wattage is). That way even when it first starts up it's still fairly bright. Also in my experience the warm-up is not as bad as people make it out to be.

 

Why don't timer switches work with CFL?

[Sisyphus]

To the same degree that you have the lights on all day every day.

 

Alright, sure. I think Klaynos was just being facetious, which is why I dismissed it flippantly, but the "they help with heating" thing is one of the more absurd arguments that for some reason keeps getting brought up. All electrical devices give off some heat, in proportion to their inefficiency. (Electric heaters being the exception, since that's all they're designed to do.) If you're expending energy 24 hours a day, 365 days a year to heat your home (or alternatively, you only use electricity of any kind while also heating your home), you obviously live in an extremely cold climate and a very poorly insulated house, or possibly you're just a tropical lizard of some kind. If that is the case, then energy inefficiency in appliances is merely irrelevant (not "helpful"), and even then only if your other heating methods aren't less expensive than heaters, and your appliances are all positioned where the heat they generate can do the most good. In other words, yes, you are just wasting money and fuel, and inefficiency is still not a good thing, even if sometimes its effects are mitigated by reducing the need for heat sources.

[iNow]

but Halogen are still Incandescents and therefore subject to the same ban surely?

 

They're talking about these:

 

 

[ParanoiA]

I don't understand the case for banning. My family buys nothing but those new flourescents, because of the efficiency, and there's no ban on incandescents here. They're quite popular and are getting moreso by the day - they sell themselves and will continue to as they get better. Again, it looks like we jump to coersion to get people to do what we want in this world. How absolutely sickening. I sure hope my pathetic government doesn't do this, but if it looks like the people are ready to sell out more of their freedoms they'll jump all over it.

 

I wonder how long it will be until we don't even bring shit up for discussion; just pass laws without any reverence for such notions as choice; just default to the official government position for all choices.

[John Cuthber]

JohnCuthber, you promised me you would learn how to use quotes!

 

I've been using a CFL in my garage for the past year+, and never had a problem. I do use a more powerful one than normal -- a 100-watt equivalent (I forget what the actual wattage is). That way even when it first starts up it's still fairly bright. Also in my experience the warm-up is not as bad as people make it out to be.

 

Why don't timer switches work with CFL?

 

Actually I said It's try to remember. Incidentally, you said it was just a matter or pushing a button. That's not true, it's a matter of copying it then deleting the irrelevant bits. Also you may not that the post you replied to quotes from 2 sources.

Anyway.

 

The timer switches use current drawn through the lamp to run. A CFL doesn't conduct properly then it suddenly conducts briefly. Neon oscilators are an interesting toy but I don't want one in my ceiling.

[bascule]

Most of the issues of CFLs are resolved by LED lighting. LED lights are dimmable (dunno about timers there) and perform even more efficiently than CFLs (up to 12X as efficient as a normal bulb) Of course, they are more expensive up front as well, but the amortized cost is much lower.

[Pangloss]

Actually I said It's try to remember.

 

Woohoo! Victory!!!

[bombus]

One thought that strikes me is that the CFLs take so long to warm up properly that you would have parked the car and gone inside before the garage lights came on.

Also, if I can't buy incandescent lamps I will have to replace the timer switches I use on some of my lights (they can't cope with CFL)- who pays for that?

 

You'll soon be able to buy LED light bulbs - which are instant and produce light but very little heat (so are very efficient).

[npts2020]

I don't understand the case for banning. My family buys nothing but those new flourescents, because of the efficiency, and there's no ban on incandescents here. They're quite popular and are getting moreso by the day - they sell themselves and will continue to as they get better. Again, it looks like we jump to coersion to get people to do what we want in this world. How absolutely sickening. I sure hope my pathetic government doesn't do this, but if it looks like the people are ready to sell out more of their freedoms they'll jump all over it.

 

I wonder how long it will be until we don't even bring shit up for discussion; just pass laws without any reverence for such notions as choice; just default to the official government position for all choices.

 

Isn't that exactly what just happened with the recent Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008? Still enforcing a ban on incandescents, imo a net positive thing, seems less reasonable than taxing them to death and making revenue in the meantime.