Rotating Earth

[Obelix]

Hallo!

 

Sorry if I bother you with trivialities or a topic which may have been discussed before, long ago, but after seeing websites like this:

 

http://www.reformation.org

 

I could not help wondering how can some people get so provocative...

 

So my question is: Foucault's pendulum is considered a crucial proof that the Earth rotates. Nevertheless:

 

1) It can't possibly be the ONLY such (direct) proof! (Lutheran fundamentalists seem to mock about the fact that even NASA "fails" to provide "more recent" direct evidence.) How many other proofs are known? I can very briefly recall Coriolis effect on hurricanes and winds, as well as the motion of ballistic missiles.

 

2) The above Lutheran fundamentalists dispute Foucault's pendulum by claiming that it was supplied by "an invisible device that made it rotate the way it did, so as to fake a rotating Earth". Hasn't this experiment been repeated elsewhere, latter? With better accuracy and improved devices?

Edited October 26, 2008 by swansont
turned volume down

[John Cuthber]

The experiment has certainly been repeated many times. For a long time (and perhaps still) there was a pendulum set up in the science museum in London and a similar one in the university of Manchester. I guess there are others.

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10196799

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Conference_Centre

 

As you say, the coriolis effects are pretty convincing.

The original problem of the "earth at the centre of the universe" idea i.e. the complications of the orbits of the planets and sun remains a major problem for those determined to believe in it.

 

Anyone who doesn't believe the evidence we currently have simply isn't paying attention.

[Sayonara]

Does anyone really feel threatened by the beliefs of Lutheran fundamentalists?

[big314mp]

It is impossible to convince people like these, because to them, there are no inconsistencies in their faith. They do not accept any outside evidence, and the belief is internally consistent. Therefore, they are impossible to convince.

 

It could be a Poe's law though.

[Edtharan]

2) The above Lutheran fundamentalists dispute Foucault's pendulum by claiming that it was supplied by "an invisible device that made it rotate the way it did, so as to fake a rotating Earth". Hasn't this experiment been repeated elsewhere, latter? With better accuracy and improved devices?

The answer to this is simple. Get them to make one and report their findings. If no one else goes near it, then they can't claim interference.

 

Also if there was an "invisible device" interfering with them, then they could just build two next to each other. If there was one device like that, then it would affect them differently, if there were two devices, then they would interfere with each other and cause the pendulums to not match the predictions. In any case they could detect the interference.

[Sayonara]

But that approach requires appreciation for rational thought.

[Zolar V]

wow, people still believe in a geocentric system?

[insane_alien]

look hard enough and you'll still find people who believe the earth is flat, only 6000 years old and the sun is only 32 miles up along with the moon. and the stars are not much further and are candles with a backdrop of black cloth but it turns blue when it is supposed to be day time.

[iNow]

Yeah, just go to a church. The likelihood of finding one of these people there is greatly increased. It's pretty sad, really. Most of them are good people, just misinformed.

[Kyrisch]

wow, people still believe in a geocentric system?

 

People still believe in a Flat Earth.

[D H]

If this thread isn't pseudoscience, nothing is.

 

Moved.

[mooeypoo]

The International Space Station *sees* the rotation of the Earth. al the time from space. So do satellites; you compare the Earth to its position in front of the sun and you see it rotating while orbiting the sun.

 

Day/Night proves rotation, too, unless people are completely oblivious to (oh,) reality and claim the sun orbits the Earth and not the other way around.

 

Uh.. why is this even a question, again?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Because NASA faked the ISS and all the satellites.

 

Of course.

[mooeypoo]

Because NASA faked the ISS and all the satellites.

 

Of course.

Shh..

 

Didn't your horoscope said you shouldn't tell secrets today?

[Klaynos]

People still believe in a Flat Earth.

 

<offtopic>Interestingly flat earth is a relatively new idea (less than 200 years)</offtopic>

 

You can find people to believe pretty much anything despite evidence they can show themselves...

[Obelix]

I did not start this thread as a pseudoscientific duscussion of flat Earth and/or geocentric system. I only asked for experimental facts. Why was it moved?

[npts2020]

Yowsa! Saying the earth doesn't rotate is well outside scientific speculation with todays knowledge of the physical universe. Some of the posters have given good ways to test this with fairly simple methods, even if you can't trust NASA. Calling it pseudoscience or even speculation is putting it kindly.

[DrP]

Yowsa! Saying the earth doesn't rotate is well outside scientific speculation with todays knowledge of the physical universe. Some of the posters have given good ways to test this with fairly simple methods, even if you can't trust NASA. Calling it pseudoscience or even speculation is putting it kindly.

 

 

I'm with Obilix here - he asked about experiments to show the earths rotation - like the classic swinging pendulum expt. (we had that one set up and running perminantly in the foyer of our physics dept. at uni). I don't think he ever claimed anything about the earth NOT rotating at all. He just asked how you can prove it does (with classic expts like the swinging pendulum).

 

I'm confused now..

[mooeypoo]

I'm with Obilix here - he asked about experiments to show the earths rotation - like the classic swinging pendulum expt. (we had that one set up and running perminantly in the foyer of our physics dept. at uni). I don't think he ever claimed anything about the earth NOT rotating at all. He just asked how you can prove it does (with classic expts like the swinging pendulum).

 

I'm confused now..

 

Yeah I don't think the problem was the OP I think the problem was the conversation turning into a talk about religious opinions and religious minorities making bogus claims.

 

That's why.

 

But we can keep going with showing examples of how historically we found out the Earth's rotating (as in, we proved it).

[D H]

The problem is that Obelix couched the question in religious fundamentalist terms. He started the original post with a link to a crackpot site and ended it with further references to them. He invited the off-topic discussions by framing the original post in exactly the same manner that crackpots use in their opening posts. Swansont even felt forced to edit the OP to "turn the volume down".

 

The posts that deride pseudoscience wouldn't have been made and the thread would not have been moved into pseudoscience had Obelix simply asked "what experiments other than the Foucault's pendulum demonstrate that the Earth is rotating" and kept it at that (which he is invited to do in another thread). He didn't do that. There was no reason to bring the nut cases into play (and these people are nuts; the vast majority of religious people do not ascribe to anything approaching these views).

[Obelix]

Quoting the web site of the Lutheran fundamentalists, I added:

 

"I could not help wondering how can some people get so provocative..."

 

Indeed, they speak of a "device" that "forced Foucault's pendulum to move in the way it was supposed to", in such a deliberate way as t make one wonder: "Didn't it cross their minds that the experiment must have been repeated many times besides that original one?" (IF that was the ORIGINAL one - was it precedented, maybe?) An what about that claim of theirs that "wind currents would have influenced the motion of the pendulum,since the experiment took place not in vaccuo"? Has the experiment been repeated in vaccuo, or under different circumstances in general?

 

They also claim triumphantly that NASA is "unable" to give any recent evidence about Earth's rotation, and they even quote NASA's site.

 

They claim that the Michelson - Morely experiment was actually a proof that "Earth did not move", and that Einstein was employed urgently by the Jesuits (the latter seem to be their No. 1 foes, and it was Lemaitre who, according to the fundamentalists, was "Einstein's mentor") to prove that the results of Michelson's experiments can be explained by a moving Earth instead. I would like someone to remind me of experiments similar to that of Michelson and Morley that took place not on Earth's surface but on an aeroplane or spacecraft instead (there was at least one were a lazer was used). Is there any idea of trying the experiment on the Moon, or Mars?

[mooeypoo]

You do notice you keep linking religious into this, right? Just saying, this is why it's in Pseudoscience/Speculations and not anywhere else.

 

In any case, it SHOULD work Mars, but... physics experts? help here? I am not sure.

 

As for the moon.. well the moon completes a rotation cycle every 24 hours (that's why it's always "facing" us) and it's also much smaller than the Earth. So I would guess that the pendulum would move much less, but .. I am not sure. I'm also not sure how to check this.

 

Anyone?

[swansont]

In any case, it SHOULD work Mars, but... physics experts? help here? I am not sure.

 

As for the moon.. well the moon completes a rotation cycle every 24 hours (that's why it's always "facing" us) and it's also much smaller than the Earth. So I would guess that the pendulum would move much less, but .. I am not sure. I'm also not sure how to check this.

 

Anyone?

 

Of course it would work on Mars.

 

The moon doesn't rotate every 24 hours — that's us rotating "underneath" it. It completes a rotation once per revolution, every 27.3 days.

 

Swansont even felt forced to edit the OP to "turn the volume down".

 

That's purely an issue of the posts being in a font size larger than normal, which is tantamount to shouting and while SLIGHTLY LESS ANNOYING THAN ALLCAPS, is still considered rude by many. Perhaps it just annoys me more than others. Obelix has been asked to not engage in such behavior.

 

However, it had nothing to do with the content.

[mooeypoo]

Of course it would work on Mars.

 

The moon doesn't rotate every 24 hours — that's us rotating "underneath" it. It completes a rotation once per revolution, every 27.3 days.

omg omg omg that's what I ..though of.. and.. geesh, that's not what I wrote.

 

Meh. Sorry, you're absolutely right, I now walk on to hide in the corner of my room.