US Presidential Citizenship Verification

[doG]

That is one of the ways "democracy" is defined in this day and age.

 

Can you cite a reference?

[Pangloss]

And the U.S. IS NOT a democracy, it is a Constitution-based federal republic.

That is one of the ways "democracy" is defined in this day and age.

Can you cite a reference?

 

I shouldn't have to. There is not one single country in the western world that meets the classical Greek definition of Democracy, but they're all called "democracies" in casual usage.

 

I'm afraid you're just not going to find a lot of purchase here for your electoral college argument. You should take comfort in the fact that people read it and found it interesting, and move on.

[ParanoiA]

I'm afraid you're just not going to find a lot of purchase here for your electoral college argument. You should take comfort in the fact that people read it and found it interesting, and move on.

 

So it shouldn't matter if the electoral college is grossly misunderstood, and misused? I agree, there isn't a lot of purchase for his argument, but there isn't a rebuttal leveled against it yet that addresses the specifics of it. Just appeals to being antiquated, without apparent understanding of its mechanics to determine such.

 

Over and over people are posting about how valuable popular vote is and should be - a few threads over we're talking about how modern politicians are more opportunist than statesmen. I find it odd that we don't put two and two together here.

 

The popular vote is heavily to blame for the devaluation, and lack of substative discourse between politicians and between the parties and within the public at large - while we dismiss the the relevance of the electoral college and its mission statement to address just that.

 

Weird.

[Pangloss]

I think those are perfectly reasonable points.

 

I also think it's perfectly reasonable to have the chief executive determined by a popular vote. There are pros and cons to each side.

[ParanoiA]

Which is interesting since the electoral college is a mixture of both...

[Pangloss]

And last I checked we still use it..................

 

(Tanjit, now bascule has you and I doing it!!!)

[doG]

And last I checked we still use it..................

 

But we don't use it in the manner it was intended so we end up with leaders elected by a public informed with nothing more than gossip and lies. I fail to see how that's better than using an informed body of electors.

[ParanoiA]

And last I checked we still use it..................

 

(Tanjit, now bascule has you and I doing it!!!)

 

Well, we all have our moments.

[npts2020]

But we don't use it in the manner it was intended so we end up with leaders elected by a public informed with nothing more than gossip and lies. I fail to see how that's better than using an informed body of electors.

 

In a society where a large number of citizens occupy their time with gossip and trivialities I fail to see how you get an informed electorate. Ever watch J-walking with Jay Leno on the Tonight Show? Unfortunately the people he asks questions are not that atypical of the population at large.

[John Cuthber]

Whatever rules the US may cuurently have for choosing their president, as far as I can see, it makes no difference to my answer to DoG's question

Q "Why should the President be the result of a popularity contest decided by a poorly informed public? "

A "Last time I checked, that was called democracy".

Whether or not it is, according to some strict deffinition, democracy isn't important. I didn't say it was. I said it was called democracy.

 

One could take the view that, if the rules say he has to be an American, but the people voted him in anyway, the rules are wrong.

[iNow]

I wonder why anybody thinks that the "electors" in the electoral college are any better prepared to make this decision than I am, me... a basic member of the populace... a citizen.

[doG]

I wonder why anybody thinks that the "electors" in the electoral college are any better prepared to make this decision than I am, me... a basic member of the populace... a citizen.

 

The electors could request and expect proper resumes and accompanying documentation freely and independent of the media. The electors of the States should be directed to avoid the media as much as juries are. They should have nothing but vetted and verifiable information to deliberate on. They should be free of the gossip and misinformation that is aimed at the public to sway their votes. They should know, not believe but know, that the candidates are verified U.S. citizens free of conspiracy theories to the contrary. They should know what the candidate's school records and transcripts state regardless of contrary gossip. They should have the ability to perform the same thorough background checks that are performed for other officials requiring top security clearances, to dispatch inquisitors to interview the friends, acquaintances and family of the candidates. In short, misinformation should play no part in electing the Chief Magistrate and that is something we cannot currently keep from the public at large.

[iNow]

Thank you, doG. I appreciate the knowledge and insight you show on this. Your points are certainly objective, and well received. I might challenge the idea that electors are any more safe or isolated from the media and misinformation than I am/we are, though.

[Pangloss]

Too bad that's not how electoral college representatives are actually chosen.

 

But I agree with iNow, and I think we should be educating the public, not putting our heads back down in the sand. The horse is out of the barn, doG, and letting politicians have free reign hasn't produced more responsible politicians.

[doG]

I think we should be educating the public...

 

I think you're dreaming. I encountered way to many people myself that were determined to believe what they wanted to believe to be convinced that you could say anything to them that would change their mind. People that believe Obama is a negro, that he took his oath of office on a Koran and that his birth certificate was forged. IMO none of these people had any business voting against him based on what they chose to believe. As well, I argued with many that swore Obama was single handedly going to pass national health care, fix the mortgage crisis and lower gas prices, things he couldn't do if he wanted. These people had no business voting for him based on their information either. In the end, a vast majority of the public are followers that will believe whatever they are told and it is that element that keeps us from getting leaders based on the facts.

[john5746]

In the end, a vast majority of the public are followers that will believe whatever they are told and it is that element that keeps us from getting leaders based on the facts.

 

You make a great point, especially in light of Prop 8 passing. I guess it depends on what skills the leader needs to get the job done. Like it or not, marketing is one of the chief skills required, IMO. The president has to persuade the people, the legislature, the press and even other countries that his is the right course. Getting the people behind your back is key to success. Being elected by the people is the opening act of the play. It engages the audience - well at least half of it.

 

So we may get someone who has less experience, less adept at churning out policies, etc. But, we may trade that for someone with more charisma and persuasive abilities. Is the best leader the one who draws the plans to take the hill or is it the one who decides from several plans and inspires the men to follow?