Obama Proposes *Mandatory* Community Service

[Pangloss]

From Obama's web site:

http://change.gov/americaserves/

 

Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.

 

Now THAT strikes me as socialism. Bear in mind that as stated this would affect all students, however they are paying for their educations. It's possible something was just misworded here and it is actually intended to apply only to students receiving financial aid (this would be more consistent with statements made on the campaign trail).

 

What do you all think?

[ecoli]

it's better than compulsory military service...

 

And while it's obviously not the worst plan in the world, it's defintiely not the government's job to force others to serve the community... whatever that means.

Anyway... all it'll take is one middle school girl to get raped at a soup kitchen for this plan to be forgotten (yes, this has happened before).

[iNow]

I'm glad I got my community service out of the way already after my arrest.

[john5746]

The high schools in my area already require 50 hours of service for graduation, but that's over 4 years. Overall, not a bad idea.

[Saryctos]

I'm all for the middleschool / highschool parts. I feel that education reform shouldn't be just about subject matter revisal, but the whole schooling experience. Getting kids out to help people, see what's going on in the real world outside of their family and the school buildings.

 

The college seems a little "wtf?" you're already studying your ass off, probably working a part time job, and in the prime age of partying, your shedule is already so booked it just seems like an unneeded headache. and @ 100hours, that's an average of 2.5 hours a day.

 

But then on top of this, there's the idea that all this free labor is just going to increase unemployment. There might have been jobs available to do these things had children not been rounded up en mass to do them.

[bascule]

My high school did compulsory community service, and I helped organize the program. Some students saw it as drudgery, but for others it was a really great experience. Personally I like it, although I don't see how this falls under the category of "socialism"

[ParanoiA]

Yeah sounds more dictorial.

[ecoli]

My high school did compulsory community service, and I helped organize the program. Some students saw it as drudgery, but for others it was a really great experience. Personally I like it, although I don't see how this falls under the category of "socialism"

Not if it's done on the local level. It just doesn't make sense for the federal government to dictate students perform community service.

[big314mp]

I have to question (and this is a question) the legality of making college students do community service. College students are adults, so unless all adults had to do community service, how do you get away with only making this one specific demographic do community service?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Define community service.

 

 

I think that will be a major problem with this scheme. People will find crap activities that they can call "community service" and just get around the system.

[iNow]

I have to question (and this is a question) the legality of making college students do community service. College students are adults, so unless all adults had to do community service, how do you get away with only making this one specific demographic do community service?

 

Probably follows the same legal setup as the draft (compulsory military service) does.

[Phi for All]

I think it's a mistake to call it community service. Call it Civic Leadership, make it a required class and give credit for it at all levels. I always jumped at the chance for off-campus activities.

[big314mp]

Probably follows the same legal setup as the draft (compulsory military service) does.

 

Well I deny the logic of that one also. Basically what I am getting at is that if you apply community service to college students, you should apply it to non-college attending 18-22 year olds as well.

 

In any case, I think the support for mandated service for adults will meet with significant resistance, and will be shot down. Mandating acts of charity seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

[ecoli]

In any case, I think the support for mandated service for adults will meet with significant resistance, and will be shot down. Mandating acts of charity seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

But this is pretty much what welfare programs are, anyway.

[swansont]

The college seems a little "wtf?" you're already studying your ass off, probably working a part time job, and in the prime age of partying, your shedule is already so booked it just seems like an unneeded headache. and @ 100hours, that's an average of 2.5 hours a day.

 

Less partying, more studying math. (Try doing the calculation again)

Edited November 8, 2008 by swansont

[Mr Skeptic]

While getting kids to do some community service seems like it would be very positive if done right, outright requiring it would make for disaster IMO.

[big314mp]

But this is pretty much what welfare programs are, anyway.

 

There's a big difference between just having the government take a cut of your paycheck, and the government ordering you to do actual community service.

 

Even if the difference is only in how people perceive it.

 

In any case, there's no fun in forced community service. It's most worthwhile as a charity thing, or as a punishment.

 

So...perhaps we can trade prison terms for community service. You know, kill two birds with one stone

[Saryctos]

Less partying, more studying math. (Try doing the calculation again)

 

whooops

17 minutes a day...much less unreasonable =P

[swansont]

In any case, there's no fun in forced community service. It's most worthwhile as a charity thing, or as a punishment.

 

How much fun is there in forced military service?

[ParanoiA]

Taking our property is theft. Forcing us to work is slavery. At the very least it is involuntary servitude, abolished in the 13th amendment.

 

United States vs. Ingalls concluded:

 

The court decision circumscribed involuntary servitude to be limited to those situations when the master subjects the servant to

 

(1) threatened or actual physical force' date='

(2) threatened or actual state-imposed legal coercion, or

(3) fraud or deceit where the servant is a minor, an immigrant or mentally incompetent. [/quote']

 

Also:

 

Title 18, U.S.C., Section 241 - Conspiracy Against Rights

This statute makes it unlawful for two or more persons to conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person of any state, territory or district in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him/her by the Constitution or the laws of the United States, (or because of his/her having exercised the same).

 

http://miami.fbi.gov/statutes/title_18/section241.htm

 

Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242 - Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law

This statute makes it a crime for any person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom to willfully deprive or cause to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S.

 

This law further prohibits a person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation or custom to willfully subject or cause to be subjected any person to different punishments, pains, or penalties, than those prescribed for punishment of citizens on account of such person being an alien or by reason of his/her color or race.

 

Acts under "color of any law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the bounds or limits of their lawful authority, but also acts done without and beyond the bounds of their lawful authority; provided that, in order for unlawful acts of any official to be done under "color of any law," the unlawful acts must be done while such official is purporting or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. This definition includes, in addition to law enforcement officials, individuals such as Mayors, Council persons, Judges, Nursing Home Proprietors, Security Guards, etc., persons who are bound by laws, statutes ordinances, or customs.

 

http://miami.fbi.gov/statutes/title_18/section242.htm

 

How exactly does Obama circumvent the law with this insult?

 

This is a travesty of freedom. Anything less than wholesale rejection of this filth is a sell out of individual liberty, the likes of which no true liberal would ever accept, much less endorse or promote. Absolutely disgusting.

[swansont]

Taking our property is theft. Forcing us to work is slavery. At the very least it is involuntary servitude, abolished in the 13th amendment.

[…]

How exactly does Obama circumvent the law with this insult?

 

This is a travesty of freedom. Anything less than wholesale rejection of this filth is a sell out of individual liberty, the likes of which no true liberal would ever accept, much less endorse or promote. Absolutely disgusting.

 

Oooh, I guess mandated education is unconstitutional too. Child labor, too, even. How despicable.

[Riogho]

Forcing people to do stuff is terrible. NOW if they are receiving money for their education (college), it can be understandable. I have community service hours I have to meet if I want to maintain some of my scholarships.

[waitforufo]

I have no problem with *mandatory* community service as long as any employment requiring the employed to fill out a W-4 form is considered community service. So if a teen or college student takes a job working at the car wash, super market, McDonalds, or any other tax paying job is considered to be providing the community with a service by contributing to the nations GDP, I have no problem.

 

This seems but a small concession to those that think work should be paid for.

[ParanoiA]

Oooh, I guess mandated education is unconstitutional too. Child labor, too, even. How despicable.

 

Actually it is, in my opinion. Child labor definitely despicable if it is forced, unless it's a punishment.

 

However, you could make the case that education isn't involuntary servitude if you only require the outcome. Similar to taxing the citizenry. You're not forcing someone to perform work, you're forcing them to give up property, that they gained by doing voluntary work. So if the law were to be written that it be mandated that americans acheive "X" in education, then you are not forcing them to attend school, you're forcing them to possess a certain amount of knowledge - that they are free to choose how to attain.

 

Of course, I'm not sure I even like that. I sure as hell don't like the fact that the government confiscates my property to pay for mandated schooling, whether or not I have children attending, and no refund if services are refused. That's some business ethic there.

[big314mp]

How much fun is there in forced military service?

 

Ignoring the fact that that specific comment was there for a chuckle:

 

Forced military service is not fun. I also don't believe in the draft, so that point is mostly moot. However, someone here (I'm too lazy to look) posted that it gets kids out into the community, and they get to learn by performing...etc.

 

That argument only works if it is voluntary. Charity work is great stuff, but it isn't charity if it is forced. Otherwise it just becomes another type of tax. Instead of doing labor and giving some of the money (which represents the labor) to the government, you are just giving the labor straight to the government. Nobody argues that taxes are a way to instill civic responsibility into adults. And why? Because they are forced to do it.

 

I never enjoyed community service for the sake of getting hours done. I enjoyed it because I chose to help someone. There is a huge difference in motivation, and this cannot be ignored. You can't force someone to do charity and expect them to benefit from it.