Obama Proposes *Mandatory* Community Service

[big314mp]

These last few posts are some real gems, that I can't really argue with even if I wanted to

 

I'm convinced.

[Mr Skeptic]

Further, when someone has spent hours picking up trash from the roadside, in the future, they are that much less likely to deposit their own trash on to the roadside. When you pick up someone else's litter, you're less likely to litter yourself. Such services give a sense of place, a sense of connection, and an understanding of the interconnectedness in our culture. It would be unfair to categorize public service as nothing more than charity. It's about community, responsibility, and stewardship, as well.

 

I'd have to agree with that. I did some park cleanup with the boy scouts one time, and it really increased my awareness about littering. That would be true even, and perhaps especially, if I was forced to clean up. If it gets people littering less, it will benefit us as a society because there wouldn't be as much wasted manpower.

 

As a society we are very individualistic, and a bit more interconnectedness would benefit us all.

[Phi for All]

more likely they can't get a better job because they're immigrants, etc.

Wow. Dude, I hope you didn't mean this the way it sounds.

 

 

But, I must disagree with your assumption that mandatory community service will instill pride in the community. For some it would... but these people would probably do community service anyway. For other people, they would just be pissed the government is making them do yet another thing that they don't want to do. You can't legislate community pride.

Do you feel the same way about classes in school that you don't identify with? I don't think this is about legislating pride, it's about well-rounded learning. What you take away from any experience is your own affair, but the idea is to be exposed to a broad array of opportunities for growth.

 

Again, I think the mandatory angle is all POV. If you key on the "forced" part of anything, you're going to be an unhappy camper.

[swansont]

Wow. Dude, I hope you didn't mean this the way it sounds.

 

 

Do you feel the same way about classes in school that you don't identify with? I don't think this is about legislating pride, it's about well-rounded learning. What you take away from any experience is your own affair, but the idea is to be exposed to a broad array of opportunities for growth.

 

Again, I think the mandatory angle is all POV. If you key on the "forced" part of anything, you're going to be an unhappy camper.

 

Exactly. You can't prevent people from forgetting anything they might have learned for a class, but the exposure, overall, has benefit.

[bascule]

The college seems a little "wtf?" you're already studying your ass off, probably working a part time job, and in the prime age of partying, your shedule is already so booked it just seems like an unneeded headache. and @ 100hours, that's an average of 2.5 hours a day.

 

100 hours of community service in college would result in a $4,000 refundable tax credit, which I'm sure has ParanoiA even angrier.

[CaptainPanic]

Now THAT strikes me as socialism.

So?

I don't understand this argument. Is socialism bad by definition?

 

This community service is part of the education. So financial aspects should not be included. Therefore the whole socialism argument is invalid. Education simply costs money.

 

There exist plenty of examples in Europe where community service is mandatory (Scandinavia and Germany as far as I know). It's not always nice to work for little money, but on the other hand... in the Netherlands a similar system is introduced, and we don't call it "community service", but instead something like "your first internship". It meets a lot less resistance (in fact, I hadn't heard about it until the program started a while ago). It's not country-wide yet though.

 

Community service does not automatically mean "cleaning up shit in the parks". Some jobs can be cool, (like driving an ambulance). But even for rich kids with proper education, it can be good to see the dirty jobs. Perhaps they'll respect those people that do those jobs a little more.

[Gilded]

That sure beats 6 months of military / 12 months of civilian service. Gender equality and all, wow!

[npts2020]

Forced altruism isn't really altruism, its an oxymoron. At any rate altruism is what you are presumably trying to instill in the individuals involved, while the rest of society screams at the top of its lungs to grab for everything you can get for yourself, if you want to be a "success". Maybe they need to be taught how to not be capitalists and value some other things at least as highly as the accumulation of wealth?

[iNow]

Forced altruism isn't really altruism, its an oxymoron. At any rate altruism is what you are presumably trying to instill in the individuals involved...

If this is how you wish to frame the issue, then you clearly find fault in the arguments presented by swansont, me, and others in this thread.

 

Please detail the faults you find in our arguments.

[Saryctos]

100 hours of community service in college would result in a $4,000 refundable tax credit, which I'm sure has ParanoiA even angrier.

 

wow...(rechecks his math), $40/hour tax free is some pretty nice cash >_>

[doG]

I think forced servitude with no reward is a poor approach. Anyone that's tried to make kids do and like chores with no belief that they'll get anything out of it knows that they get nothing more of an attempt to do those chores with as little effort and quality as possible. Offer those same kids a reward for chores done and done well and many will seek chores to get their rewards.....You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[iNow]

Or, the reward could be graduation (given successful completion of the other criteria, like passing their classes).

[Sisyphus]

wow...(rechecks his math), $40/hour tax free is some pretty nice cash >_>

 

Yeah, that can't possibly be right. I'm guessing the tax break is proportional to hours put in, up to a maximum $4000, and 100 hours is just the minimum time. But again, that's just a guess.

[bascule]

Yeah, that can't possibly be right. I'm guessing the tax break is proportional to hours put in, up to a maximum $4000, and 100 hours is just the minimum time. But again, that's just a guess.

 

Nope, it's effectively $40/hour. 100 hours = $4000 refundable tax credit for college students.

 

You can read about his plan here:

 

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/service/

[Sisyphus]

Huh. Well, hell, I'll do that.

[iNow]

Do you have to be a student to qualify? I'll do it, too.

[Pangloss]

Nope, it's effectively $40/hour. 100 hours = $4000 refundable tax credit for college students.

 

If they actually mean "tax credit". I have a nagging suspicion any time I hear those words that what the politician actually means is "deduction". That is what they say, but these definitions are sometimes confused in common parlance and I have not seen it clarified by anyone in the Obama camp in interviews, etc. If you run across anything like that please pass it along.

 

If it is "credit" then it is a massive amount of money, btw. I don't know how many high school + college students there are in this country, but it's a pretty honkin' huge number. That'd be up in bailout territory.

[bascule]

If they actually mean "tax credit". I have a nagging suspicion any time I hear those words that what the politician actually means is "deduction". That is what they say, but these definitions are sometimes confused in common parlance and I have not seen it clarified by anyone in the Obama camp in interviews, etc. If you run across anything like that please pass it along.

 

This doesn't come from Obama, but it claims explicitly that Obama's program provides a refundable tax credit as opposed to a tax deduction:

 

http://collegesavings.about.com/od/glossarydefinitions/g/ObamaTaxCredit.htm

 

If it is "credit" then it is a massive amount of money, btw. I don't know how many high school + college students there are in this country, but it's a pretty honkin' huge number. That'd be up in bailout territory.

 

According to Obama's web site he expects the program to cost $10 billion.

 

The tax credit is only for college students, not high school students.

[waitforufo]

Huh. Well, hell, I'll do that.

 

Do you have to be a student to qualify? I'll do it, too.

 

As with all socialist programs, the crowd quickly forms at the feeding trough. Rest assured however, that the quantity and the quality of the slop will hardly make the effort worth the expenditure. Their will be so many conditions and exemptions placed on qualifying, few will receive anything. Those that do receive will receive little, maybe twenty bucks. Four thousand bucks for 40 hours of work? Well maybe if your life circumstance meets some very narrow profile. The rest will walk away with certificate of appreciation. Believe me, just get a job, you will then walk away with both earned pay and real self worth.

[swansont]

There is already a tax deduction for tuition*, so presumably this would replace it, meaning the net change in tax burden is less than $4k per student. And better than a flat-out tax credit or deduction for tuition, since the country accrues some tangible benefit from it in addition to having educated citizens.

 

edit:

*currently there is a deduction and two types of tax credits

http://collegesavings.about.com/od/taxbreaksforcollege/a/deducttuition.htm

[Mr Skeptic]

Is this on top of all the financial aid students already receive, or will it replace some of it?

 

edit: crossposted with swansont

[Sisyphus]

As with all socialist programs, the crowd quickly forms at the feeding trough. Rest assured however, that the quantity and the quality of the slop will hardly make the effort worth the expenditure. Their will be so many conditions and exemptions placed on qualifying, few will receive anything. Those that do receive will receive little, maybe twenty bucks. Four thousand bucks for 40 hours of work? Well maybe if your life circumstance meets some very narrow profile. The rest will walk away with certificate of appreciation. Believe me, just get a job, you will then walk away with both earned pay and real self worth.

 

I have a job...

[waitforufo]

I have a job...

 

…and therefore you won't be eligible.

[Sisyphus]

I'm also not a student. I was kidding.

[waitforufo]

I'm also not a student. I was kidding.

 

I'm sure Obama is kidding as well.