8 Year Old Kills Father

[Riogho]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/08/national/main4586103.shtml

 

This is why you should ALWAYS wear a condom.

 

The 8 year old kid killed his father and coworker in cold blood with a gun. The judge is considering trying him as an adult, and giving him the maximum sentence to be served in a juvenile detention facility.

 

If a child commits an adult crime (murder, DUI, manslaughter) should they be tried as an adult?

[ParanoiA]

That question is too open ended and this story has not developed enough facts to really comment on. It's sad. And I suspect the boy really was abused, and I further suspect the friend with his dad was a potential abuser. But, obviously, it's much too early to conclude anything really.

[iNow]

From a philosophical standpoint, I have a hard time believing that a child with such minimally developed brain function is not able to be rehabilitated and become a productive member of society. Convicting them to a life in prison under adult laws would prevent them from doing exactly that, though.

 

Tough call. I'm more on the side of "let's treat them and make them better" than "let's punish them and take their life away." I tend to lean that way with adults as well, but I concede that it's a difficult balance to find.

 

Strangely, I feel pretty bad for this kid.

[Sisyphus]

I think it would be pretty absurd to try any eight year old as an adult, and I'm surprised a judge would consider such a thing. That said, I have no problem with detaining the criminally insane indefinitely, if there's no way to release them without causing substantial danger to others, and that includes children. Most of them can be effectively treated, and some can't. Sometimes it takes years to know which is which.

[Dak]

The judge is considering trying him as an adult

 

doesn't that go entirely against the principle of being merciful against childeren?

 

If a child commits an adult crime (murder, DUI, manslaughter) should they be tried as an adult?

 

With a very few exceptions, there are no 'adult' and 'child' crimes: only crimes, adults, and childeren.

 

e.g.: you're not allowed to have sex with an under 16 year-old even if they say you can, because they have been deemed legally not responsable for their sexual actions; therefore, for legal consistancy, under 16 year olds can't be tried for rape (in the UK) as that would contrarily imply that they were sexually responsable for their actions. hence, if a 15 year old rapes, they get tried for assault, as they're not responsable for the sexual aspects of their transgression.

 

similarly, under 18 year olds can't legally buy alcohol, because they're 'too young to be trusted to drink responsably'. But, it's a crime for an adult to sell alcohol for a child, and alcohol can be confiscated from a child, but it's not illegal for a child to own/imbibe alcohol (too young to be deemed responsable wrt alcohol -- if you were going to treat them as responsable, you'd have to allow them to drink, see?). hence, it's legally enforced that kids can't drink whilst adults can, but it's still not a 'child crime' as compared to an 'adult crime'.

 

other examples exist, such as, e.g., slapping (illegal/legal dependant on situation, with different requirements to be legal when slapping a kid than an adult). but still no adult v. child crimes.

 

childeren are treated differently in defference to the fact that they're childeren, and so less responsable for their actions -- they have not yet reached the point where 'they should have known better'. so, the law (usually) takes a less punative, and more rehabilatative, stance.

 

hence -- trying an 8 year old as an adult == stupid.

[Mr Skeptic]

I think that the whole idea of children not being responsible for their actions is a horrible idea. I don't think that the law should give them any leeway because they are children; that should be left to the judicial process. Isn't that why we have judges and juries, to make sure that the laws are applied fairly and considering all factors involved? The judge and jury can be merciful to children if they want. IMO telling children that they are not responsible for their actions is asking for disaster.

[Pangloss]

Okay, but in what way is not charging them as an adult equivalent to telling them that they're not responsible for their behavior? What is it specifically about the juvenile justice system that you find problematic in this regard?

[Severian]

Strangely, I feel pretty bad for this kid.

 

I do too, but I don't think that is strange.

 

A typical eight year old child doesn't really understand death. He probably just wanted his father to go away and leave him alone forever. Also children are a reflection of the environment they are brought up in - so the very fact that he is willing to shoot someone with a gun tells us that (most probably) his father was not a very good role model.

 

I don't think it is fair to put all the blame on the kid. I am a strong believer that parents should be held responsible for their children's crimes, and in this case the punishment has already been meted out.

[ParanoiA]

A typical eight year old child doesn't really understand death. He probably just wanted his father to go away and leave him alone forever. Also children are a reflection of the environment they are brought up in - so the very fact that he is willing to shoot someone with a gun tells us that (most probably) his father was not a very good role model.

 

I don't think it is fair to put all the blame on the kid. I am a strong believer that parents should be held responsible for their children's crimes' date=' and in this case the punishment has already been meted out.[/quote']

 

I don't think you can analyze blame until you have a good idea on his mental capacity. An 8 year old can have the brain of a teenager, or a new born - not all 8 year olds are on equal footing here. It's just a generalized assumption that is accurate the major majority of the time.

 

And the notion the child is a product of his environment comes back to the nature-nurture debate that isn't likely to be settled here. I can tell you from personal experience, my parents did everything right - my sister turned out absolutely perfect - but I didn't give a shit. I still smoked pot, drank beer, hit mailboxes, fornicated like a bunny rabbit and even was a bully for a short stint.

 

My mom and dad didn't teach me that crap. Neither of them smoked pot or condoned violence in the least. Sex was explained to me like politically correct society told them to. We were middle class, and I wasn't abused a day in my life. I spent much of my time in trouble because they didn't condone these things - groundings, labor in the backyard (digging holes), writting assignments.

 

And I've seen this over and over again. Good parents do not equal a good kid by any stretch of the imagination. Neither does a good kid equal good parents. My neighbors are alcholics, drunk 24/7, but their son hangs out with mine and he's a great kid, a good influence really. He does seem sad, for obvious reasons, but the boy isn't violent, rude, mean, disrespectful, nothing.

 

I've heard the nurture argument and it's bullshit. Punishing parents for child behavior is inaccurate and intellectually lazy. Seems like parents that were blessed with genetically cooperative children usually have that tack. They've never had to actually "work" on getting their child's attitude straightened out. And they're usually delusional in thinking that their parenting is why their child is ok, rather the child's obvious predisposition and personality.

[Riogho]

A recent development in the case, it turns out that the boy used a hunting rifle, one that required you to reload it after every shot. He shot the gun 10 times.

[iNow]

I suppose that's possible, but do you at least have a source so I can read more about it?

[Riogho]

http://tothewire.wordpress.com/2008/11/12/8-year-old-boy-kills-father-and/

 

Sorry, still new to this.

[john5746]

I consider this child to be psychotic and in need of therapy for a long time. Whether it is primarily a case of genetics or environment, he is what he is and needs therapy and removal from society IMO. No need for punishment, just protect society #1 and provide the possibility of remediation #2.

 

On a personal note, I would not allow a child to have access to guns. I can see teaching a child, say 12 to shoot, etc. But to be able to get the gun at anytime is crazy. Kids get angry and say things like "I wish you were dead" etc. If they say it with a gun, you can't take it back.

[SkepticLance]

Out of the approximately 15,000 murders committed each year in the United States with a gun, normally less than 5 are done by a child. I don't think you can regard children committing murder as a major problem, in relative terms.

 

Thus, even if you are wrong, it is not going to do a great deal of harm to treat the children differently to an adult. We know from other studies that exposing youth to adult offenders makes their offending worse. A recent study here in NZ showed that young offenders locked up with adults had a reoffending rate 7 times as high as those not locked up with adults.

 

Based on this kind of hard data, I would say kids should be treated as kids, not adults, when looking at dealing with their crimes.