quantumbiology

[jungjedi]

is there such a thing.does life function at a quantum level?could it be called quantum bio -mechanics?

Edited November 25, 2008 by jungjedi
put in new stuff

[C_Sagan_Returns]

is there such a thing.does life function at a quantum level?could it be called quantum bio -mechanics?

 

Doesn't quantum imply that we're dealing from within the atom (or at that level)? I don't think there's such a thing as quantum biomechanics, because biochemistry covers all that.

 

The smallest unit of measurement used in biology is the Angstrom. 1 Angstrom = 0.1 Nanometers....that's right, 10X smaller than a nanometer!! To give you an idea, a hydrogen bond is approx. 3 Angstroms (0.3nm).

 

What exactly did you have in mind? Are you talking about something on a smaller level than this? I don't think you can go much lower.

 

CSR

[Psycho]

What exactly did you have in mind? Are you talking about something on a smaller level than this? I don't think you can go much lower.

 

CSR

You can go much lower and at some point it will probably happen, whether it will really effect anything or not is another question. The current problem is the physicist's don't quite understand it yet so no one else has go a chance.

[C_Sagan_Returns]

You can go much lower in what sense?? My point was that bond lengths are measured in Angstroms and biological processes don't exist (to my knowledge) on a smaller level than making and breaking bonds. I suppose an exception would be electron transfer/redox which operates on a smaller level (depending on the distance upon which the reaction is taking place).

 

I think what you're taking about is either a part of quantum mechanics or biophysics not a combination. If you could give me an example I might be more inclined to agree with you.

 

CSR

[farmboy]

I suppose when you go down far enough, everything depends on quantum mechanics. Quite a lot of biological systems make use the different oxidation states of certain metals, which is essentially a quantum mechanical property.

[jungjedi]

i was wandering if the brain might function as a quantum computer and what biomechanichal processes might be involvled

[npts2020]

i was wandering if the brain might function as a quantum computer and what biomechanichal processes might be involvled

 

I think you have quantum processes confused with chemical processes. My understanding of quantum computing is that it uses single atoms, photons, or subatomic particles for memory storage, whereas the brain uses chemical processes requiring larger scale molecular reactions for it.

[jungjedi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_brain_dynamics

[Psycho]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_brain_dynamics

What exactly does that show apart from nothing, some guy had a hypothesis 40 years ago, since when no evidence has been accumulated to prove it.

[Tekmo]

The impression I got was that the brain could do everything it did with just classical physics. It's just a really complex computer.

[Mokele]

All of this "quantum biology" crap is just that - crap. Quantum effects occur on a very small scale, far, far below where biological systems operate. Any biological system or activity involves so many molecules as to make quantum effects meaningless.

 

Think of it this way: a coin flip is random. To simulate quantum effects on a single animal cell, throw 1,000,000,000,000,000 coins into the air, and see what the ratio of heads:tails is. I guarantee it'll be so close to 1:1 as makes no difference, especially since in an accurate simulation, you'd be tossing those same coins every millisecond.

 

Remember, even individual neurons can be large enough to see with minimal magnification. Ones in the leg can have axons a meter long. That's a LOT of atoms.

 

Mokele

[foodchain]

All of this "quantum biology" crap is just that - crap. Quantum effects occur on a very small scale, far, far below where biological systems operate. Any biological system or activity involves so many molecules as to make quantum effects meaningless.

 

Think of it this way: a coin flip is random. To simulate quantum effects on a single animal cell, throw 1,000,000,000,000,000 coins into the air, and see what the ratio of heads:tails is. I guarantee it'll be so close to 1:1 as makes no difference, especially since in an accurate simulation, you'd be tossing those same coins every millisecond.

 

Remember, even individual neurons can be large enough to see with minimal magnification. Ones in the leg can have axons a meter long. That's a LOT of atoms.

 

Mokele

 

I can agree to an extent. For instance with genetics, the position that has in regards to biology is enormously important, more so in conjunction with evolution, to its possible role of course in medicine to who knows what. Yet on that level you as yourself state deal with atoms, or molecular systems of some kind of course. I just think going along with molecular biology and biochemistry, such is just another scale or dimension if you want to study life on, like being a microbiologist for instance compared to say studying bats.

 

QM would have its role there automatically by trying to determine I think for instance protein structure, to what makes up an enzyme, to how the enzyme works which is I think is held possibly to work via quantum tunneling type effects. I am not sure if thats anything more then speculation though of course.

 

Yet to also with genetics, you cannot for instance just have biological education be genetics. There are more scales, or dimensions again of course to studying life. I just think when you get down to dealing with say the chemistry of life, you also have to take into account the chemistry then, which would by definition extend to quantum mechanics via physical chemistry. I mean biochemists, or professional ones I am sure know how to use spectroscopy right? What about NMR? I think quantum mechanics is used in the periodic table even with the electronic configuration of atoms, which I think connects with say ions, or bonding behavior.

 

Either way, I think the application of such to biological evolution via studying biochemistry for instance will be awesome. To understand life from a molecular scale I would think could only enhance our understanding in so many other areas, like chemistry or physics.

[pioneer]

One quantum affect that is observed is hydrogen proton tunneling. In water, the proton will move between electron orbitals more or less confined to particular oxygen atoms. This is the nature of the pH affect. Sometimes potentials are such that the proton takes quantum short cuts.

 

Quantum tunneling

These traditional "over the barrier" mechanisms have been challenged in some cases by models and observations of "through the barrier" mechanisms (quantum tunneling). Some enzymes operate with kinetics which are faster than what would be predicted by the classical ΔG‡. In "through the barrier" models, a proton or an electron can tunnel through activation barriers.[13][14] Quantum tunneling for protons has been observed in tryptamine oxidation by aromatic amine dehydrogenase.[15]

Interestingly, quantum tunneling does not appear to provide a major catalytic advantage, since the tunneling contributions are similar in the catalyzed and the uncatalyzed reactions in solution. [14][16][17][18]

Wikipedia.

 

In this case, the quantum affect doesn't change efficiency or the net product of reactions. But in an integrated cell, enzymes could gain potential from an integrated global affect added to the local affect. The analogy is someone is working a job independently. The boss sticks his head in the door and they speed up. Once he leaves they go back to the old speed. The quick burst of activity may not add anything over the day so there is no net increase in daily productivity. If we ignore the boss affect it looks like a random blip of extra energy.

 

When something enters the cell there is a chain of chemical command that works its way to the DNA. The DNA reacts and will then feedback RNA and protein to address what entered the cell. The quantum affect could signal the DNA before the chain of command reaches the DNA. It could be like a global or integrated grapevine affect, that passes the word the big boss just got out of his car. Everyone is shuffling before he even enters the building. The system is getting ready to go, so when the big boss barks specific orders, it acts quickly. If it had to wait for the entire chain to complete each task it could not adapt to short term input reversals, but would complete tasks before it could begin another. What we see looks like a random or wild card or quantum variable added to the control system. The easiest way to do this is through the water since it can already transmit quantum tunneling and beat the chemical train.

Edited December 17, 2008 by pioneer

[Mokele]

Interesting, I didn't know about the quantum tunneling effects in proteins.

 

Perhaps I should clarify: what I meant was, while obviously quantum mechanics determine things like reactions and whatnot, there's a LOT of garbage floated about 'connecting your brain to the quantum foam' and other such hogwash, and that when considering the possibility of quantum effects, to remember that cells can be HUGE, and contain billions of atoms, so in the end, things tend to average out.

 

To re-enforce "huge", consider the squid giant axon (not giant squid axon) - it's a single nerve which has informed us about a great deal of neurobiology, and was chosen because this *single axon* is so huge it's visible to the naked eye.

 

Muscles are even bigger. You know the stringy sort of texture of chicken meat? Those fibers are *individual muscle cells*. And most intact muscles are similar - you can often see individual cells with the naked eye.

 

Obviously, some cells are smaller, and in the case of sperm, a LOT smaller, but from the quantum perspective, they're still HUGE.

 

Sorry to harp on like this, but a pet peeve of mine is that intro to biology classes just say that "cells are tiny", but don't really go into detai about how big or small they are or the range of sizes. Same thing with chemistry. As a result, students just lump electrons and cells together in the "very tiny" category, without realizing that the difference in size between a modest-sized cell and an atom is like the difference between a large sports stadium and a gnat.

 

Mokele