does the proton/electron HAVE an electric charge? or is the proton/electron...

[paul]

...THE CHARGE ITSELF?

 

in other words,

 

if i hold up a card marked "charge", i, in a sense, have a "charge"

 

but i can put the card down, and we both can exist independently

 

is the proton/electron like this? can it be separated from its charge, or have its charge taken from it, and still exist?

 

if not, and if the charge is integral to it, what is it other than the charge? and if its nothing without its charge, then does that not imply that it is THE CHARGE ITSELF?

 

(my confusion / curiosity stems from reading often that, "an electron/proton is a particle WITH a charge)

[Gilded]

First of all, while electrons are fundamental particles, a proton's charge stems from it's "building blocks"; two up quarks (+2/3e each) and one down quark (-1/3e).

 

Anyway, there are particles that have a net electrical charge, and there are those that don't. That's just the way it is, I suppose. There's a lot more to particles than their electrical charge though, like mass and spin.

[swansont]

Charge is a property that they possess.

 

Neutrons have no charge. Are they the lack of charge itself? I don't think the question makes any sense.

[paul]

gilded, you said,

 

"There's a lot more to particles than their electrical charge though, like mass and spin."

 

this is what i'm wondering about; is the electron an entity WITH a charge; or is it the CHARGE ITSELF? if it has mass (and spin) is it something independent of its charge? can it be separated from its charge?

 

swansont, you said,

 

"Neutrons have no charge"

 

i think neutrons do have charge; they're composed of 2 down quarks and an up quark, each of which have charge. it's true the neutron has no NET charge, ie, it's neutral

[Gilded]

i think neutrons do have charge; they're composed of 2 down quarks and an up quark, each of which have charge. it's true the neutron has no NET charge, ie, it's neutral

 

There are quite a bit of fundamental particles without electrical charge though. Neutrinos, photons...

 

As noted by swansont, electrical charge is just a property of particles. To ask what you're asking is somewhat akin to asking whether you can isolate reflectivity out of a mirror's surface, and just have reflectivity by itself. I'd say that both reflectivity and charge are by themselves abstract concepts that describe how something behaves.

[paul]

gilded, you said,

 

"I'd say that both reflectivity and charge are by themselves abstract concepts that describe how something behaves."

 

so the electron is an electron by virtue of it having charge? its charge is a property of it? it can't lose its charge and become something else?

 

thanks btw for your patience. i'm new to physics. i'm keen to grasp as best as i can the actual phemomena, rather than just learning formulae etc by rote

[Royston]

its charge is a property of it?

 

Yes, the electron is defined by how it interacts e.g negative electric charge.

 

it can't lose its charge and become something else?

If you collided an electron and a *positron you can create two gamma ray photons, at higher energies you can create heavier particles (namely mesons), due to conservation laws, and the relationship [math]m = \frac{E}{c^2}[/math] i.e the energy has to go somewhere (very basically.) Hope that makes sense.

 

Keep asking if there's something you're not sure about.

 

*electrons anti-particle

[Baby Astronaut]

To ask what you're asking is somewhat akin to asking whether you can isolate reflectivity out of a mirror's surface, and just have reflectivity by itself.

I think it'd be the other way around: akin to asking whether you can isolate reflectivity out of a mirror's surface, and just have the mirror by itself.

 

Which of the following two questions does paul's best match?

 

1. If you remove a single proton's sole electron, do you still have an atom?

 

2. If you remove the skin from an apple, is it still an apple?

 

You see, the atom would cease being an atom, where the apple would still be an apple.

 

So, maybe this would help answer paul's question.

[swansont]

You can't remove the charge from a proton, so those questions are moot.

[ydoaPs]

You can't remove the charge from a proton, so those questions are moot.

 

So, when a proton outruns its electric field and then enters a medium with a lower refractive index, does the field come back?

[Klaynos]

So, when a proton outruns its electric field and then enters a medium with a lower refractive index, does the field come back?

 

Grrrrrrrrrrr Čerenkov radiation is nothing special! The field is always there the photons are always leaving at c. Just remember you can just flip into the rest frame of the proton

Edited November 27, 2008 by Klaynos
multiple post merged

[paul]

thanks Baby Astronaut, but i think my question was fundamentally different;

 

we know a hydrogen atom can have it's electron taken away and still exist (even if we choose to call it something other than an atom, ie, a cation, or simply a proton);

 

and we know an apple can have its skin removed and still exist (whether we now call it an apple or a peeled-appled isn't important; it's something with something removed that is still something)

 

what i'm asking is, is this the case with the electron? can an electron have its charge removed and still exist as something (whether we call it an electron or not)? or is the charge too abstract for that, is the charge simply a property of the electron (unlike the electron to the hydrogen atom - which is a component of the H atom, and unlike the apple skin, which, in a sense, is a component of the apple)?

[swansont]

thanks Baby Astronaut, but i think my question was fundamentally different;

 

we know a hydrogen atom can have it's electron taken away and still exist (even if we choose to call it something other than an atom, ie, a cation, or simply a proton);

 

and we know an apple can have its skin removed and still exist (whether we now call it an apple or a peeled-appled isn't important; it's something with something removed that is still something)

 

what i'm asking is, is this the case with the electron? can an electron have its charge removed and still exist as something (whether we call it an electron or not)? or is the charge too abstract for that, is the charge simply a property of the electron (unlike the electron to the hydrogen atom - which is a component of the H atom, and unlike the apple skin, which, in a sense, is a component of the apple)?

 

No, you can't remove the charge. But a proton is made up of quarks, and you have other particles that have a charge of +1e. So "the proton IS charge" doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.