Where Can I Find H2SO4?

[aommaster]

What is the black stuff that is fromed?

[YT2095]

Carbon, released from the sugar

 

C12 H22 O11

 

the 22/11 makes H2O (the steam) leaving 12 parts Carbon

[felinlasv]

So it's related to graphite (if spelled correctly) and diamond, but it just has a different molecular structure?

Does any of you guys know something usefull about the KCLO3+sugar thing I posted under catalysation reactions?

[YT2095]

most chlorates on exposure to sulphuric acid will spontaniously ignite, hence sulpher is NEVER to be used in a chlorate mix!

[felinlasv]

Thanks, I'll definitely won't try mixing KCLO3 and H2SO4

[YT2095]

no problem

and never mix Chlorates with Nitrates either, the mix can be explosive and very unpredictable!

 

that includes PerChlorates too x-ClO4 they`re more stable but still dangerous!

[felinlasv]

Ok, I'll keep with the KCLO3 and sugar mix and see how that works out.

[YT2095]

it`s not a bad mix, but does give off alot of water (steam) when it burns, that has a damping effect, but again, it all depends on what you want to use it for?

personaly, I use crushed BBQ Lumpwood charcoal instead, it has a fast burn rate and can be slowed down to any rate I like from that point onwards

[felinlasv]

Good point, I was planning on building a small rocket this summer (how about that for a next experiment ) and I'm kinda doing the 'theoretical' part right know because I don't have that much time left untill my exams start.

 

I wanted to use it as fuel for my rocket because I need something that's easy to lay my hands on, that will last a few seconds and give of enough energy to get my rocket of the ground without blowing it to pieces..

 

As I said before, I live close to a scrap/recycling park and I'm planning on getting as much basic material as I can there. Any idea's?

[YT2095]

well if it`s for a rocket, then I wouldn`t use ANY metal or hard plastics in it until I`de perfected making the engines, at least that way if one blows (and they will in their dozens before you get it right!) you`ll not be hurt or damage any property by flying schrapnel!

 

I reccomend you use a Charcoal/Chlorate/Dextrin mix, it`s the most simple and effective, and it casts excellently with little shrinkage

[felinlasv]

nice, that's a lot of usefull advice. One more question, what's the dextrin for?

[Dave]

Just as a sidenote; if you're flying a rocket for the first time, I'd suggest using some pre-made solid rockets before you attempt to make your own just to get a bit of experience with them.

 

(unless of course you've already played with them, in which case just ignore me )

[YT2095]

it`s the Binder, it`ll make it set like stone

very easy to make also

[felinlasv]

Never heard of it, only of dextrose but that's probably not what your talking about. So what's its formula and how can I make it?

 

I've never tried a rocket before but I do have experience with getting things in the air. I was thinking of putting the engines at the top of the rocket instead of at the bottom to prevent it from changing directions when in the air. Just think of it, it's way harder to push something up (because you'll have to watch out is doesn't tip over) than to pull it up. I'm going to make a rough model first just to get some more experience.

[Dave]

You have to bear in mind two things when doing that:

 

1) Rockets tend to generate a lot of heat => melting things like your airframe.

2) If you put the rockets at the top, it will become inherantly unstable because of the high centre of gravity, and also because of the misproportion of thrust along the axes which is travel; basically put, it'll probably return to the ground rather sooner than you expected

[YT2095]

dextrin:

 

have a look in the kitchen cuboards, you want some corn flour (starch), it`s the plain white powder used in making gravy and tempura batter mix. if you don`t have any goto a store and buy some, it`s only pennies

 

then dump the lot out onto a baking tray and put it in the oven at 150c for about 30 mins, the color will change from white to a light tan color, mix it occasionaly so all gets some heat and check as it doesn`t burn, a yellowy tan color and NOT Brown or BLACK! LOL

 

let it cool and store it in an airtight jar, you`ve just made Dextrin

[felinlasv]

Hmm,

 

How about making sure that the rockets gravity center is below the engines, that's not that hard to do? The melting is indeed a bigger problem, even if I'd use thin metal it would probably still burn through it. What about these two options:

1) Making sure there's enough distance between the engines and vulnerable rocketparts

2)Putting an angle between the engines and the rocket (which will also result in a loss of lifting power but I can adjust that)

[YT2095]

use paper/cardboard engine formers, just like ordinary fireworks do

Alu cased engines are good too, but your not ready for that yet, and they take AGES! to dry properly and suffer from cavitation due to fuel shrinkage making the likelyhood of explosion almost certain. the only reason it can be done in factories is they press the fuel in under a ton or 2`s pressure! you`re not up to that and neither am I

stick to the stated methods for now, and get one in the air, THEN mess about with different methods

[felinlasv]

Sorry I've only just seen your reply about the dextrin. So then I mix the dextrin with the KCLO3/charcoal and under influence of the air it hardens? Sounds cool. Can I use it to harden whatever substance I want?

 

Maybe I'll start with launching some fireworklike rockets first. As long as I can get them in the air I'll be satisfied . Thanks for al the usefull info

[Dave]

Hmm' date='

 

How about making sure that the rockets gravity center is below the engines, that's not that hard to do? The melting is indeed a bigger problem, even if I'd use thin metal it would probably still burn through it. What about these two options:

1) Making sure there's enough distance between the engines and vulnerable rocketparts

2)Putting an angle between the engines and the rocket (which will also result in a loss of lifting power but I can adjust that)[/quote']

 

Both of those suggestions are likely to affect the stability of the rocket quite dramatically (especially the second one). Remember that to make the rocket as stable as possible, it's preferable to have a low centre of gravity (but again - not too low). This is why you don't see many rockets having their engines located near the top of the vehicle - they'd simply tip over the minute they're fired up.

 

Putting the engines at an angle isn't an option. Once you fire it up, it'll have the aerodynamic properties of a small brick, which will quickly result in a return to the ground from whence it came. You'll also find that by mounting the engines near the top that if it's caught by the wind you're gonna be pretty screwed without some kind of navigation equipment to adjust the trajectory of the rocket.

 

Also bear in mind that rockets that have the engines mounted at the bottom are pretty unstable in their own right. The large ones have a computer controlled guidance system constantly adjusting the trajectory to make sure they stay on a stable flightpath, and that in itself is no small feat.

 

Hope this helps.

[YT2095]

So then I mix the dextrin with the KCLO3/charcoal and under influence of the air it hardens? Sounds cool. Can I use it to harden whatever substance I want?

you`ll need only a level teaspoon of dextrin per 100 grams of chlorate charcoal mix, make the char/chlor mix a little bit chlorate rich to compensate, as dextrin is also a fuel like charcoal

 

then add a few drops of hot water to the mix in a bowl and make it into a stiff paste (like pastry dough) then push this mix into your tubes and hammer it down to make sure there`s no air pockets in the fuel grain, then just leave it in the sunshine for a few days until it`s completely dry

you can even add a little meths alcohol to the hot water to help it dry a little faster

and yes you can use it to harden any water based product.

[felinlasv]

Well, you guys are both great. As soons as my exams are over I'll be on top of it!

[YT2095]

not a prob, just let us know how you get on, and maybe send or link to some pics when you`ve done it, I`m sure I can speak for all that have helped in this thread that we`de love to see them and hear how it went, just rem to stay safe and take NO RISKS you don`t have to!

 

all the best

[aommaster]

Good luck! and most of all, enjoy!!!

[MulderMan]

i was gonna ask bout on the heating of dilute acid but someone already said that the gas would be nasty. and also is there any chance of it setting alight while heating. i remember in school a few weeks ago, we were heating sulphuric acid for a base + salt experiment (along the lines of that i forgot the details) and before we added the base to the acid it went up.