WMAP sources- how to explain them????

[snp.gupta]

How to explain WMAP sources???

 

We can see ' Extragalactic Sources' Bennett paper 2003, 'WMAP observations: Foreground emission' in particular 208 extragalactic point sources, including the 5 spurious ones.

 

We can see WMAP '2008'-- 5-year data release also.

[iNow]

Have you seen this special? It's split into six chapters.

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/program-3114.html

[snp.gupta]

Have you seen this special? It's split into six chapters.

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/program-3114.html

 

 

:-)Thank you sir,

 

But I could not see any answer for our search.

 

You can down load that paper by Googling, or shall I give you a link for that Bennett paper???

[Martin]

How to explain WMAP sources???

 

We can see ' Extragalactic Sources' Bennett paper 2003, 'WMAP observations: Foreground emission' in particular 208 extragalactic point sources, including the 5 spurious ones.

 

We can see WMAP '2008'-- 5-year data release also.

 

Do you mean you would like to know more about the origin of the CMB (cosmic microwave background)?

 

If you want to know more about the CMB then you need something more introductory and general than the WMAP reports.

 

Don't get confused by words like "extragalactic point sources". These would not be sources of the true CMB and they would presumably be filtered out of the data as much as possible.

 

Have you tried wikipedia "Cosmic Microwave Background"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

Have you checked Einstein-online to see if they have a CMB article?

Edited December 20, 2008 by Martin

[snp.gupta]

Do you mean you would like to know more about the origin of the CMB (cosmic microwave background)?

 

If you want to know more about the CMB then you need something more introductory and general than the WMAP reports.

 

Don't get confused by words like "extragalactic point sources". These would not be sources of the true CMB and they would presumably be filtered out of the data as much as possible.

 

Have you tried wikipedia "Cosmic Microwave Background"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

Have you checked Einstein-online to see if they have a CMB article?

 

Thank you for your advice sir…

 

I am bit new to this forum, I did posting in other forums. Posting on this subject is not new to me. For ref see:

 

*LINKS to Garbage removed*

 

I read those fundamentals. You can test my knowledge, if you please.

 

Now just I want to discuss WMAP point sources, over which they have published many papers. If they have filtered out and erased the sources and show clean CMB, that way they feel CMB is originated from Bigbang. Hence it is by the best way, by eliminating all witnesses against, proves Bigbang!

 

Still if you people want to discuss about the possible origins of CMB other than from Bigbang you are welcome,

 

Otherwise, hail Bigbang !!!!!

Cheers !

Edited December 21, 2008 by YT2095
BAUM linkage removed

[Martin]

...If they have filtered out and erased the sources and show clean CMB, that way they feel CMB is originated from Bigbang. Hence it is by the best way, by eliminating all witnesses against, proves Bigbang!

 

Still if you people want to discuss about the possible origins of CMB other than from Bigbang you are welcome,

 

Otherwise, hail Bigbang !!!!!

Cheers !

 

Dear Gupta sir, thank you for making your viewpoint plain. Now I understand better what sort of discussion you want to have.

 

I think there are two clear stages that we can see in how the scientific community has responded to the detection of the (around 2mm) Radiation in question.

 

In the first stage, one wants to be skeptical and tolerant of all the alternative explanations proposed---and open to all the data in the relevant wavelength band.

 

We know of sources of microwave radiation on earth, in the solar system, in the plane of our galaxy, and we know of point sources which we can see optically---active galaxies which emit both visible light and microwave etc.

 

By the end of the first stage, with the vast bulk of the Radiation unaccounted for by alternative explanations, a consensus was reached. Our understanding "gelled".

 

After that, those who studied the Background would routinely filter out nearby source radiation and the like because they wanted to study the Background and learn as much as possible. If you are going to analyze and map and measure you want to be sure you are looking at just the Old radiation, not recent microwave produced in our own galaxy.

 

So cleaning out extraneous noise is not an attempt to prove the ancient origin. We now take that for granted. A consensus has been reached after due consideration, and anyone who still challenges it is immediately branded as a crackpot.

 

Filtering out stuff that is not part of the old radiation is not a conspiracy to fool people, or to confirm an irrational prejudice. There is no longer any question or argument. There is nothing to prove, by filtering or not filtering. Now in the second stage, one filters in order to be able to perform the best possible analysis--to do technical things like measure the angular power spectrum, estimate curvature, model early universe structure formation, test ideas of inflation.

 

The category of crackpot is critically associated with timing and community. Science is essentially a community activity governed by an ethic.

If you belong to the community you implicitly agree to be tolerant and open-minded--consider evidence in objective rational manner---and to encourage differences of opinion up to a point.

 

Then when a consensus is reached based on ample empirical evidence a member of the community is expected to go along with it, and give up their pet alternate theories. At a certain point the community agrees to stop arguing and move on.

 

It is at this point that the crackpot label plays an important role. The people who continue to call attention to themselves by arguing must be branded and ostracized, so that the community can continue to function.

 

It is not to be done lightly, requires people to act in good faith, and timing is critical. One has to encourage all kinds of creative disagreement and be very open-minded at the stage when that is important, and then ultimately one has to settle on a consensus and close ranks and move ahead to the next problems. We are talking about a 400 year old tradition and a human process, not something that could be programmed into a machine. Science is a living tradition---you can't predict when something will gel by applying strictly logical rules.

 

Anyway Gupta sir, those are my thoughts on the general question of Crackpottery especially as applies to our discussion of the Background.

 

BTW the question of Big Bang versus Big Bounce is still open, the timing is right for disagreement and thinking up alternatives in that department. If you are a maverick by nature you should maverize about something that is of current interest and not something that was settled 20-some years ago.

Get with it, dude

[snp.gupta]

Dear Gupta sir, thank you for making your viewpoint plain. Now I understand better what sort of discussion you want to have.

 

I think there are two clear stages that we can see in how the scientific community has responded to the detection of the (around 2mm) Radiation in question.

 

In the first stage, one wants to be skeptical and tolerant of all the alternative explanations proposed---and open to all the data in the relevant wavelength band.

 

We know of sources of microwave radiation on earth, in the solar system, in the plane of our galaxy, and we know of point sources which we can see optically---active galaxies which emit both visible light and microwave etc.

 

By the end of the first stage, with the vast bulk of the Radiation unaccounted for by alternative explanations, a consensus was reached. Our understanding "gelled".

 

After that, those who studied the Background would routinely filter out nearby source radiation and the like because they wanted to study the Background and learn as much as possible. If you are going to analyze and map and measure you want to be sure you are looking at just the Old radiation, not recent microwave produced in our own galaxy.

 

So cleaning out extraneous noise is not an attempt to prove the ancient origin. We now take that for granted. A consensus has been reached after due consideration, and anyone who still challenges it is immediately branded as a crackpot.

 

Filtering out stuff that is not part of the old radiation is not a conspiracy to fool people, or to confirm an irrational prejudice. There is no longer any question or argument. There is nothing to prove, by filtering or not filtering. Now in the second stage, one filters in order to be able to perform the best possible analysis--to do technical things like measure the angular power spectrum, estimate curvature, model early universe structure formation, test ideas of inflation.

 

The category of crackpot is critically associated with timing and community. Science is essentially a community activity governed by an ethic.

If you belong to the community you implicitly agree to be tolerant and open-minded--consider evidence in objective rational manner---and to encourage differences of opinion up to a point.

 

Then when a consensus is reached based on ample empirical evidence a member of the community is expected to go along with it, and give up their pet alternate theories. At a certain point the community agrees to stop arguing and move on.

 

It is at this point that the crackpot label plays an important role. The people who continue to call attention to themselves by arguing must be branded and ostracized, so that the community can continue to function.

 

It is not to be done lightly, requires people to act in good faith, and timing is critical. One has to encourage all kinds of creative disagreement and be very open-minded at the stage when that is important, and then ultimately one has to settle on a consensus and close ranks and move ahead to the next problems. We are talking about a 400 year old tradition and a human process, not something that could be programmed into a machine. Science is a living tradition---you can't predict when something will gel by applying strictly logical rules.

 

Anyway Gupta sir, those are my thoughts on the general question of Crackpottery especially as applies to our discussion of the Background.

 

BTW the question of Big Bang versus Big Bounce is still open, the timing is right for disagreement and thinking up alternatives in that department. If you are a maverick by nature you should maverize about something that is of current interest and not something that was settled 20-some years ago.

Get with it, dude

 

 

Respected Martin Sir,

I thank you once again for such nice explanatory and practical worldly guidance…

 

You are correct, in the first stage, say in 1965, after Penzias and Wilson , precision of optical and microwave instrumentation was not enough to resolve the sky into millions of stars and Galaxies as we see in today’s catalogs.

 

Definitely we should not mistake the elderly decisions that time. It is all history now. What is my point of view is not to waste further of human intelligence and brain power.

Definitely it is not my point of view…

 

That’s why I am not arguing or agreeing about the second stage you have mentioned. [ Pussst… I don’t want to be branded and ostracized as Crackpot, lunatic or even M.A.D…..]

 

Ok lets go into " BTW the question of Big Bang versus Big Bounce is still open, the timing is right for disagreement and thinking up alternatives in that department. "

What shall I do for that sir, Shall I put forth some of my xxxxx ideas on that?????:D

I want to work for the humanity and I don’t want to criticize any one…

 

Thank you once again,

Warm regards

=snp

[npts2020]

snp; You should definitely put forward any ideas you have. There are people here who can either show you where your ideas are in error or help refine them into coherence. I have found the review process to be typically fair, if sometimes harsh. Be prepared for a lively discussion if you are proposing anything novel to current understanding.

 

Good luck to you, sir. IMO advancement of knowledge is a worthwhile pursuit for anyone not struggling with basic survival.

[snp.gupta]

snp; You should definitely put forward any ideas you have. There are people here who can either show you where your ideas are in error or help refine them into coherence. I have found the review process to be typically fair, if sometimes harsh. Be prepared for a lively discussion if you are proposing anything novel to current understanding.

 

Good luck to you, sir. IMO advancement of knowledge is a worthwhile pursuit for anyone not struggling with basic survival.

 

Sir,

 

There are Ideas about

1. This thread starting point….about WMAP / CMB…

2. BTW the question of Big Bang versus Big Bounce…

May be I will put forward about the first here, as I started the thread here. And universe model questions may be in some new thread , ok

 

Radiation from Bigbang was from about 13.7 billion years old. It is not from any stars, Galaxies, any Astronomical bodies, or even from Interstellar dust / Inter-Galaxial dust. What do you say sir?

[npts2020]

Sir,

 

There are Ideas about

1. This thread starting point….about WMAP / CMB…

2. BTW the question of Big Bang versus Big Bounce…

May be I will put forward about the first here, as I started the thread here. And universe model questions may be in some new thread , ok

 

Radiation from Bigbang was from about 13.7 billion years old. It is not from any stars, Galaxies, any Astronomical bodies, or even from Interstellar dust / Inter-Galaxial dust. What do you say sir?

 

Few people I know who are serious students of cosmology would much disagree with this other than perhaps contesting the notion of Big Bang vs. Big Bounce or quibbling about the exact age. Nobody (that I am aware of) has ever shown conclusively that either idea is correct or not.

[snp.gupta]

..... Nobody (that I am aware of) has ever shown conclusively that either idea is correct or not.

 

Probably because of time factor, you are confusing; I will change my statement as follows…

 

CMB is radiation from Bigbang . It is not from any stars, Galaxies, any Astronomical bodies, or even from Interstellar dust / Inter-Galaxial dust. What do you say sir?

[iNow]

I will change my statement as follows…

 

CMB is radiation from Bigbang . It is not from any stars, Galaxies, any Astronomical bodies, or even from Interstellar dust / Inter-Galaxial dust. What do you say sir?

 

Just for clarification, do you mean:

a) It is not generated by any stars, galaxies, astronomical bodies, etc.

or

b) It is not influenced, impacted, or changed by any stars, galaxies, astronimical bodies, etc.

?

[snp.gupta]

Just for clarification, do you mean:

a) It is not generated by any stars, galaxies, astronomical bodies, etc.

or

b) It is not influenced, impacted, or changed by any stars, galaxies, astronimical bodies, etc.

?

 

I mean to say...

a) It is not generated by any stars, galaxies, astronomical bodies, etc.

[npts2020]

I mean to say...

a) It is not generated by any stars, galaxies, astronomical bodies, etc.

 

I am not sure what you are asking. You have described the standard cosmological view so far as I can tell.

[snp.gupta]

I am not sure what you are asking. You have described the standard cosmological view so far as I can tell.

 

Yes sir, I am saying about the standard cosmological view

 

Yes sir, I am saying about the standard cosmological view

No replies....

 

Ok.. Let us discuss:-)

 

What are WMAP sources?????

How to explain them? What are they? 2008 WMAP sources paper & 2008 WMAP 5-yr data release ware taken to visualize the concepts.

 

1. Here basically we argue that radiation is received in all frequency ranges from astronomical bodies from Radio, Far infrared, Quasars, QSOs, to Stars, Galaxies, and X-ray sources, such that they cover the Blackbody spectrum theoretically from one end to another.

 

2. Large angular movements of WMAP in multiple of 22.5° start causing the thermal fluctuations, smaller angular movements near the radii of main-lobe gains will cause the maximum fluctuations and in very small angular movements systematic and measurement errors dominate the signals.

 

3. In addition uneven Microwave dish gains from Main-lobes, Back-lobe and side-lobes cause the lot of errors in signals in Multipole moment maps. Calculation of Bigbang emitted radiation temperature using Vakradiation also given QORG catalog was used for showing the real astronomical bodies, which are in the vicinity of those WMAP sources given in 2003 year.

 

4. Thus this paper fairly explains the Basic properties of CMB like Black body spectrum, WMAP sources, thermal fluctuations in multipole moment maps etc., with in the normal Physics framework, and with out using any Bigbang concepts

[north]

the thing is about WMAP is that the microwave back ground radiation is only local

 

for there is only so many galaxies , which admit microwave radiation , which can be eliminated from being any source of microwave radiation

 

I know beacuse about two years ago I asked NASA this direct question

 

and there are very few galaxies , very few

[snp.gupta]

the thing is about WMAP is that the microwave back ground radiation is only local

The dish antennae used MEASURES radiation from distant objects. For local you have to use some immersion thermometers, some thing like we put into our mouth, when we get fever.

for there is only so many galaxies , which admit microwave radiation , which can be eliminated from being any source of microwave radiation

Galaxies EMIT :-)microwave radiation, so do stars and other astronomical bodies. You are correct here. All this radiation should be eliminated, it was not done till now from say 1965. If you know any instance of such elimination, please let’s discuss….

I know beacuse about two years ago I asked NASA this direct question

I don’t know what you have asked NASA, what you have understood.

and there are very few galaxies , very few

Check for “ Galaxy Catalogs” in Google…

[npts2020]

There are a lot of galaxies, but relative to the amount of space they are extremely sparse. Unfortunately, I can't tell you definitively if anyone has done or not what you suggest, it seems like it would certainly be worthwhile to do.

[snp.gupta]

There are a lot of galaxies, but relative to the amount of space they are extremely sparse. Unfortunately, I can't tell you definitively if anyone has done or not what you suggest, it seems like it would certainly be worthwhile to do.

 

 

We can calculate the effective radiation of these galaxies, if not at least we can approximate their radiation, which was what I did…But ignoring totally is not correct.

[north]

The dish antennae used MEASURES radiation from distant objects. For local you have to use some immersion thermometers, some thing like we put into our mouth, when we get fever.

 

Galaxies EMIT :-)microwave radiation, so do stars and other astronomical bodies. You are correct here. All this radiation should be eliminated, it was not done till now from say 1965. If you know any instance of such elimination, please let’s discuss….

 

I don’t know what you have asked NASA, what you have understood.

 

Check for “ Galaxy Catalogs” in Google…

 

I didn't check as of yet

 

so are saying that NASA has eliminated ALL sources of microwaves from beyond say 3-4 galaxies away from us ?

 

thats new

 

I asked NASA how many galaxies they have eliminated as a source of microwaves , and the said , besides are own galaxy , maybe two or three , no more

[snp.gupta]

I didn't check as of yet

 

so are saying that NASA has eliminated ALL sources of microwaves from beyond say 3-4 galaxies away from us ?

 

thats new

 

I asked NASA how many galaxies they have eliminated as a source of microwaves , and the said , besides are own galaxy , maybe two or three , no more

 

You are correct sir,

Why eliminate only one or two…, they should remove all. Similarly all radiation from stars, all astronomical bodies and galaxies they should eliminate…

 

Then only we can see if any thing remains!

[north]

Originally Posted by north

I didn't check as of yet

 

so are saying that NASA has eliminated ALL sources of microwaves from beyond say 3-4 galaxies away from us ?

 

thats new

 

I asked NASA how many galaxies they have eliminated as a source of microwaves , and the said , besides are own galaxy , maybe two or three , no more

 

 

You are correct sir,

Why eliminate only one or two…, they should remove all. Similarly all radiation from stars, all astronomical bodies and galaxies they should eliminate…

 

Then only we can see if any thing remains!

 

they havn't eliminated more than two or three galaxies because they don't have the capability!!

 

so supporting BB with WMAP is an extremely weak argument if not really pointless

 

of course not many people know this

[snp.gupta]

Originally Posted by north

they havn't eliminated more than two or three galaxies because they don't have the capability!!

 

so supporting BB with WMAP is an extremely weak argument if not really pointless

 

of course not many people know this

 

You are correct sir...

 

CMB is generated from Stars, Galaxies, Dust & clouds other astronomical bodies. What do you say?

[north]

Originally Posted by north

Originally Posted by north

they havn't eliminated more than two or three galaxies because they don't have the capability!!

 

so supporting BB with WMAP is an extremely weak argument if not really pointless

 

of course not many people know this

 

 

You are correct sir...

 

CMB is generated from Stars, Galaxies, Dust & clouds other astronomical bodies. What do you say?

 

 

until we can at least eliminate 10,000 galaxies ( three dimensionaly) as the sourse of microwave radiation

 

we can't use microwave radiation as evidence of BB theory

[snp.gupta]

until we can at least eliminate 10,000 galaxies ( three dimensionaly) as the sourse of microwave radiation

 

we can't use microwave radiation as evidence of BB theory

 

Not only that; stars and other astronomical bodies also emit radiation in the same WMAP frequencies, they should eliminate all stars and dust clouds etc…

 

They eliminated SUN , Planets, Moon, Galaxy disk. COBE by design collects samples of radiation not in the direction of COBE to SUN, but perpendicular to that direction. Other stars also like SUN, why should they keep stars?