Israel vs Hamas, Round 5,672,341,566,125

[Pangloss]

Just wondering what you all think of the situation over there.

 

I am no mindless supporter of Israel, often criticizing their behavior on this forum. But this time it seems to me that they've shown astounding restraint given the way they are being constantly and inexcusably attacked. There is no country on this green earth that would stand for that -- not a single one.

 

For the UN to say that they've not been responding proportionally is insane -- that's putting body counts ahead of justice and fairness. Since when is the number of deaths even relevant in the issue of justice? How does that even enter into the discussion?

 

And frankly it WAS a proportional response. Exactly the RIGHT proportion. And perfectly justified given the complete and utter lack of international effort to actually fix the problem.

 

International politics is crazy. Just crazy.

[ecoli]

I don't think the UN should be telling Israel what to do. OTOH, I'm not sure that escalating the violence was the right move for Israel. They could just be letting hamas solidify their support. Which is, tactically, not a smart move.

[padren]

Since when is the number of deaths even relevant in the issue of justice? How does that even enter into the discussion?

 

Very good point, especially when you consider what the numbers would look like if the militants had the same weapons Israel has.

 

I can't help but to feel a bit aggravated when I read Palestinian comments on how there is "no such thing as a precision strike" when the area is so densely populated, yet militants are firing unguided missiles at anything they can hit inside Israel - just a touch of a double standard.

 

 

As far as the response being fair or not - I couldn't even begin to come to a conclusion without being a lot better informed, but the only thing I can say to give the Palestinian side any leeway is the question of how "united" they are in the attacks on Israel, and to raise the question of whether they are thus "fair targets" as a result. Like I said, I don't know enough to make that call, just that it is the only question I can see playing Devil's Advocate.

[ecoli]

 

I can't help but to feel a bit aggravated when I read Palestinian comments on how there is "no such thing as a precision strike" when the area is so densely populated, yet militants are firing unguided missiles at anything they can hit inside Israel - just a touch of a double standard.

 

And this is not even restricted to Jews... some palestians where killed/injured by terrorist rockets last week.

[doG]

Rock on Israel. Keep it up until the Arab world sees that Hamas is the problem, not Israel.

 

When a boy in the village pokes the hornet's nest with a stick and his neighbors get stung then they should take up their problem with the boy, not the hornets.

[mooeypoo]

As you all probably know, I usually try to avoid this forum (have enough politics in real life but this time, I am making an exception.

 

Hamas is a problem to both sides - it's been firing missiles nonstop on southern Israel for the past 7 years while Israel did its best to restrain itself, do "precision" attacks against specific terrorists, and try to talk. Abu Mazen does not seem to control the situation, and Hamas seems to just keep on firing without much care to life on both sides.

 

In the past week Hamas extended its missile range further inside Israel to more than "just" the area that was affected up until now, and started getting into bigger cities, stretching the line further and further.

 

Israel has no choice at this point. Civilians die on both sides, and Hamas doesn't seem to care. Israel *has tolerated* this situation, relatively peacefully for seven years (!!) while rockets hit cities in Israel.

 

We all just hope that this will end soon, for both sides. I can't speak for my government, but I can tell you that the vast majority in Israel are *not* happy with the situation, but agree that it's about damn time someone does *something* to stop the bloodshed and missile attacks.

 

Don't forget that our military is composed of us - the "normal person" in Israel - and we really would prefer not going to war. We all want this to end soon, but we also don't want to get out of Gaza just to go back in there again a month later when the missiles continue (as it was up until now).

 

Just before the attack, Israel opened the border to send medical supply inside Gaza (as, btw, is done *daily* from Israel even under Hamas fire, and they do fire on those trucks). I am not sure how much this was reported on the news.

 

 

Since I have family in the area, I am very much updated with what goes on there. If you want, I can try and post updates on the situation.

 

 

p.s, as is a custom in this forum - here are a few resources:

Dec 26, Israel opens the border for humanitarian aid despite rocket attacks from Gaza: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7799915.stm and http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2008/12/26/world/AP-ML-Israel-Palestinians.html

And a list of Qassam Rocket attacks on south-western Israel (and updates on current events): http://http://twitter.com/QassamCount

 

Another note, just to put things in proportion -- Israel is tiny. When a rocket is fired inside it, it's INSIDE it. Tel Aviv is CLOSE to the border. Jerusalem is halfway the border. It's not quite like having a border remote from heavily populated areas.

Edited December 29, 2008 by mooeypoo

[Sisyphus]

Another note, just to put things in proportion -- Israel is tiny. When a rocket is fired inside it, it's INSIDE it. Tel Aviv is CLOSE to the border. Jerusalem is halfway the border. It's not quite like having a border remote from heavily populated areas.

 

A good comparison for Americans is noting that it is less populous and geographically smaller and than the state of New Jersey.

 

As for this latest trouble, the most depressing aspect for me is that I can barely muster the interest to find out the basic facts, so utterly familiar is all of this. Per usual, Hamas is the primary instigator, and Israel responds in a technically justifiable but nevertheless unadmirable manner. Not that I'm claiming I would know what to do if I was in charge, of course. It just seems like everything they do just reinforces the status quo of low-grade, punctuated equilibrium of violence. And per usual, all I can really say is that this kind of thing seems unlikely to end until major cultural changes take place, which will probably require that a generation that doesn't give a **** about Zionism one way or the other grows up and takes over in Israel and its neighbors, the older generations die off, and Israel becomes just another secular state instead of a "Jewish state" and a "promised land." Good luck, right?

[mooeypoo]

Actually, Israel is relatively going into secularism in the past 30 years. We have Gay Marriage, for instance.

 

The Arab citizens (mind you - the *citizens of Israel*, not the citizens of the palestinian authority, there's a difference) are *full* citizens with the right to vote (and they do vote, there's a fairly large extreme-left/arab party in the parliament). I'm not saying Israel has no problems with these things, of course it does, and there's a LOT to improve, but it's also not quite what you tend to see in the Media, either.

[jackson33]

Just wondering what you all think of the situation over there.

 

I am no mindless supporter of Israel, often criticizing their behavior on this forum. But this time it seems to me that they've shown astounding restraint given the way they are being constantly and inexcusably attacked. There is no country on this green earth that would stand for that -- not a single one.

 

For the UN to say that they've not been responding proportionally is insane -- that's putting body counts ahead of justice and fairness. Since when is the number of deaths even relevant in the issue of justice? How does that even enter into the discussion?

 

And frankly it WAS a proportional response. Exactly the RIGHT proportion. And perfectly justified given the complete and utter lack of international effort to actually fix the problem.

 

International politics is crazy. Just crazy.

 

I rarely comment on post/threads, I TOTALLY agree with....

 

In trying to come up with an approach to this issue, having read much of the history behind Israel and their problems to survive and seemingly constant repeats of these problems the thread title said it all..."Round.....".

 

Well done and the comments your getting, may be those of the World Community, for a change. Maybe Government's (Politics) will see the light, note the level of terrorism around the World and connect it to what has been common place for Israel for years and years and years....

[Sisyphus]

Actually, Israel is relatively going into secularism in the past 30 years. We have Gay Marriage, for instance.

 

The Arab citizens (mind you - the *citizens of Israel*, not the citizens of the palestinian authority, there's a difference) are *full* citizens with the right to vote (and they do vote, there's a fairly large extreme-left/arab party in the parliament). I'm not saying Israel has no problems with these things, of course it does, and there's a LOT to improve, but it's also not quite what you tend to see in the Media, either.

 

Yeah, I realize that, and I realize it must seem like a double standard to demand liberalization from basically the most liberal nation in the region. I try not to do that. But still, it is still "the Jewish state," and its basic purpose hasn't really changed, no? They still offer special priveleges to foreign Jews, right? (Again, I realize they aren't unique in this. For example, I could get an Italian passport if I wanted, just because a quarter of my ancestors were Italian.) And all the pro-Israel (and anti-Israel, for that matter) lobbying in America seems to be mostly really about Zionism. Most people who support Israel don't support it for the reasons that I do (i.e., it's a liberal democracy and a loyal ally), but because it's a Jewish state. So the problem isn't really what Israel does, but what it is. If it had just been founded as an ordinary secular democracy that just happened to have a large Jewish population, do you really think there would be all these problems? I don't.

[john5746]

Don't forget that our military is composed of us - the "normal person" in Israel - and we really would prefer not going to war. We all want this to end soon, but we also don't want to get out of Gaza just to go back in there again a month later when the missiles continue (as it was up until now).

 

I think that is a key point, that soldiers usually are not eager to slaughter citizens, but want to defeat the enemy. Hamas is just a well organized group of well-armed thugs. I would hope that most of the palestinian people do not share their motives, but articles like the link below lead me to believe they probably love it. I think America should bow out and let Israel defend itself, but take a stronger interest in somehow building up Gaza and the West Bank. Only paying attention when there is violence is exactly what feeds terrorism.

 

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/palestinian_hateeducation_cont.html

[mooeypoo]

Yeah, I am one of those who support the notion of having the Palestinians having their OWN state, independent of Israel. Also, Israel has tried to send resources to rebuild the Gaza harbor.. there was a.. glitch with that, though. Specifically, the workers were shot at.

 

In any case, I thought you'd like to know - tomorrow (Tuesday, December 30th) at 1-3pm EST, the Israeli Consulate in New York will hold an online "Citizen Press Conference", where it will take questions from the public online through twitter.

 

Check it out here: http://www.israelpolitik.org/2008/12/29/citizens-press-conference-on-twitter/

 

And the Israeli Consulate in NY twitter page: http://twitter.com/IsraelConsulate

 

FYI.

[Pangloss]

That might be worth seeing just for the non-political, technogeek angle. Thanks Mooey.

[Riogho]

Isn't Hamas also a tasty lebanese dish?

[big314mp]

Isn't Hamas also a tasty lebanese dish?

 

I believe you're thinking of falafel

[padren]

I believe you're thinking of falafel

 

Actually, it's Hummus:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummus

[iNow]

The story I heard that seemed to hold the greatest weight was that Hamas is not an organized military, but instead relies on the passion and public opinion. So, knowing this, they instigated Israel into using force, counting on them to respond, so they could then use that aggression to their own advantage in recruiting and retaliatory efforts.

[ParanoiA]

That's what always leads me back to bombing them with cheese burgers and x-box's (pot and chocolate wouldn't hurt either). I really think if people get a taste of life beyond an impoverished quaint nod of class compliance they might stop dying so much for it.

[Pangloss]

True, though it begs the question of who's going to pay for this "cheeseburger charity". Obviously it would have to be significant and long-lasting aid to overcome the local influence of Hamas. They're not being rejected the way Al Qaeda has been in Iraq.

 

You're touching on a key point, though, and a lot of observers (particularly Fareed Zacharia and Thomas Friedman) feel that the Middle East's tragic absence from the economic boom of the last few decades is a main component in the current problems.

[Riogho]

That's what always leads me back to bombing them with cheese burgers and x-box's (pot and chocolate wouldn't hurt either). I really think if people get a taste of life beyond an impoverished quaint nod of class compliance they might stop dying so much for it.

 

Oh man, don't drop Xbox's, as soon as the red ring of death hits, they'd go crazy. Drop a wii.

[Mr Skeptic]

I understand that in extremely hot places, homes are built underground. I've always imagined what it would be like to have an entire city underground, leaving the surface free for more aesthetically pleasing sights. A side-effect is that the houses would be rocket-proof. Obviously, you can't rebuild a city like that, but what do you think of that idea?

[Pangloss]

Not sure if that's really all that realistic a suggestion. Though I suppose Israel would be more than happy to "bury" Hamas.

 

I miss basements. One of the down sides of living at sea level. Blerg.

[iNow]

I actually question the suggestion that a home will be "rocket proof" due simply to being built underground.

[mooeypoo]

There are "easier" and cheaper ways to protect a house against attacks, as the people of western Israel know too well (their houses are being rebuilt/renovated to include such 'safe rooms' for the past 8 years due to the rocket attacks).

 

Also, the problem in gaza is not so much defending against the missiles, it's that the people run TOWARDS the place where the missiles will be launched at despite warnings (and the IDF does warn).

 

Here, see this:

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/ArticlePrintPage.aspx?xyz=QrrxVt3TvzXUUXrd2E%2bKdQBAlgyb55%2fynOLl7gNPIB7kdQan1PIPbi4Yz4qDnQsmI5mw%2fZLBPwEI9e0cRV7YbMLBOBX9eObjj3nPt6F9Ns4%2fYdQr7pN2Vg%3d%3d

 

Excerpt (from the Hamas itself):

It was Dr. Rayyan, who took the initiative, two years ago, to protect homes against Israeli occupation air strikes by forming human shields which succeeded in stopping this practice by the Israeli occupation, where they used to phone the occupier of the home and warn him to evacuate it in ten minutes because the home is going to be bombed.

(bold added, not in original)

 

The Hamas is TRYING to put civilians in harms way so the world will condemn the attacks and they suffer more casualties. It's their tactics; building bunkers won't help if no one goes to them when there's danger.

[DrP]

My 2 Cents:

 

This might not be popular, but here is a solution for peace in the Middle East.

 

We have tried giving the Palastinians a recognised teritory time and time again - EVERY time they end up attacking Isreal and sending in missiles (to which Isreal respond heavy handedly - as they should). It won't work. It hasn't worked for the last 70 years or so. What they need to do is take ALL of the Palestinians from the west bank and Gazza and re-distribute them into the neighbouring Arab countries (Sirria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt.. etc..) and give Gazza and West bank up as Israili territory. Done - no more hastle!.