Pangloss Posted January 3, 2009 Author Posted January 3, 2009 No, a lot more hassle. Renewed intifada, open revolt in every Arab state, massive refugee problems, and new land ceeded to a country that doesn't deserve it (Israel) and taken away from a people already disserviced (the Palestinians). That's not a solution, it's a total destabilization.
DrP Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 As opposed to 70 years of continued wars? (and alot more to come) There isn't room for both of them. There is no solution - the likes of Hammas will awalys see to that. Anyway I shouldn't have poked my nose in (as this topic can often lead to arguments)- I am not going to get into this conversation as there is NO solution the problem. I pray I am proved wrong!
iNow Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Pangloss - DrP has a point... It's not as if it's the shining example of stability now...
DrP Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 He's right really though INow. It probably wouldn't really work - there would be uproar. There is just no pleasing some people.. But seriously - it is all very tragic.
jackson33 Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Why couldn't the UN authorize Egypt to assume responsibility over the Gaza Strip, with assistance. Autonomy for Palestinians could still exist via Lebanon, any die hards moving there. Wouldn't this moot the purpose of Hamas, in the first place or the Iranian intervention.
mooeypoo Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Egypt doesn't *want* the responsibility over Gaza. Last time Gazans tried to run from Hamas/Fatah shootouts, Egypt authorities shot them. Pangloss - DrP has a point... It's not as if it's the shining example of stability now... Yea, well, it's not very easy to have a solution (ANY solution) when Israel supports a 2 state solution and Hamas supports an eradication of Israel. ... how do you even *begin* talking? It's not like Israel hasn't tried to talk; Oslo accords were a big step (With Arafat). But Fatah didn't *DECLARE* their intention for the eradication of Israel. Hamas does.
Mr Skeptic Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 As opposed to 70 years of continued wars? (and alot more to come) There isn't room for both of them. There is no solution - the likes of Hammas will awalys see to that. Genocide is a solution Alternately, both sides agreeing to a peace (which would likely involve compromise), and also that someone be able to enforce the peace (ie, crack down on rouge troublemakers). Then again, I don't see either happening any time soon.
Reaper Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Look at what I read over here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637/?GT1=43001 Looks like Israel is actually going through with this . They invaded Gaza Strip just less than 2 hours ago, and from this report they apparently massed "tens of thousands" of soldiers along the border. Now if THAT isn't a full scale invasion then I don't know what is . I guess we will see how this whole thing will play out huh? On the side note, what do you think the chances are of subduing Hamas with this kind of assault? Seems to me that no matter how many suicide runs or kidnappings they do, I think their days might be numbered. This is similar to what happened to the PLO over 20 years ago....
big314mp Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Alternately, both sides agreeing to a peace (which would likely involve compromise), and also that someone be able to enforce the peace (ie, crack down on rouge troublemakers). The closest you are gonna get to that would be a "hearts and minds" type of campaign to convince the Palestinian public that Israel won't go away, so they might as well learn to get along. Of course, I find that possibility laughably distant, given the current state of the region. And what are we ever going to do with those red faced attackers
padren Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 I honestly can't understand what Hamas is thinking right now, especially with the Israeli ground operations mentioned in the other thread... what kind of strategy can they be playing at? Let me see if I understand the way this has been going, because maybe I'm missing some important facts: Hamas starts firing missiles into Israel after the cease fire lapses, and Israel responds with air strikes, and Hamas refuses to stop firing missiles into Israel. If that's the case, what on Earth do they think they can gain from continuing to fire missiles into Israel?? The only thing I can even imagine them hoping to get out of it, is the very ground invasion underway, and if that is what they want - then is this some "draw Israelis into Gaza and let Gaza burn to kill Israelis" wacko plan? What country on Earth just puts up with missiles being fired into their territory? I could understand why this would be a "gray area" if it was "rogue elements" that were firing the missiles despite condemnation of the Palestinian National Authority, but how is this gray at all under the current situation?
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 I just merged the other thread on Israel's invasion (Reaper's post above) into this one. Sorry for any confusion.
john5746 Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 I honestly can't understand what Hamas is thinking right now, especially with the Israeli ground operations mentioned in the other thread... what kind of strategy can they be playing at? What were the 9/11 hijackers thinking? What were the guys that blew up the golden dome thinking? They are killers that thrive in a chaotic environment. They want a war between Israel and muslims, IMO.
padren Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 What were the 9/11 hijackers thinking? What were the guys that blew up the golden dome thinking? They are killers that thrive in a chaotic environment. They want a war between Israel and muslims, IMO. I'm pretty sure they wanted to goad the US into a long, protracted war guerrilla in the middle east that would unite the Muslim world against the west. It didn't exactly unite all Muslims against the west, but it did wonders for their recruitment programs. Plus, those hijackers did not represent any governmental body the way Hamas does in Gaza, which also blurred the issue of who to retaliate against. For Hamas to fire missiles into Israel though, would be more like Cuba cheering on their government firing missiles into Florida - completely suicidal and leaves no room for question about the military response. If they want an open war with Israel then they are on the right track, but it's crazy to think that the world would deplore Israel when their Gaza civilians caught in the cross fire they start... or to think that they have any chance better than Cuba would against the US. They aren't exactly going to bring down the Israeli armed forces with their missiles - they'll just leave Gaza burning and take a number of Israeli casualties with them.
bascule Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 And the US is blocking UN calls for a ceasfire... WTF?!
iNow Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 There was an existing ceasefire, bascule... since 2005. That didn't stop Hamas from lobbing rockets into Israel (like 80-90 every single day), so Israel is doing what any nation would do. I think Israel is quite right to strike harshly in response, and that we should allow it to continue. Shimoan Perez was on This Week with George Stephanopoulis this morning, and you can tell just how impossible of a situation this is when listening to his words. A ceasefire won't likely accomplish anything. I concede, though, that the challenge with the current Israeli strategy is that it only works in the long run if they setup a permanent occupation force, and I don't think that's ideal either. Finally, there is some suggestion that this plays right into the hands of countries like Iran. They know that having Israel respond like this will fuel passions in the Arab world (that basically they pushed the provocation to begin with), and hence make it more difficult for the Obama administration to court them and bring them to the table of global cooperation. That was a big fear in leaders who rely on instability... that Obama would bring people together and make sure Arab leaders were involved... precisely counter to their goals and wants. Either way, a ceasefire now almost shows Hamas that there won't be consequences for their firing of rockets deeper and deeper into Israel... that the killing of Israeli children unprovoked won't cause the rain of thunder they are currently receiving. The time for a proportional response has long since passed, and it's time for something more permanent. This is all my own opinion, and I don't mean to suggest that this is (by any means) a simple or uncomplicated situation.
doG Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 And the US is blocking UN calls for a ceasfire... WTF?! Arab nations demanded that the council adopt a statement calling for an immediate cease-fire following Israel's launch of a ground offensive in Gaza earlier Saturday, a view echoed by Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. When Arab nations demand Hamas be dismantled completely and immediately then their demands might be worth hearing. Until then let them play switch....
DrP Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) There was an existing ceasefire, bascule... since 2005. That didn't stop Hamas from lobbing rockets into Israel (like 80-90 every single day), so Israel is doing what any nation would do. It's the same old storey. It has been looping round for years. (look at the thread title! - lol). Isreal never wanted to give up the Gazza strip in the first place because EVERY other time they have done it in the past the palastinians (or Hamas or whoever) have launched missiles from there. Therefore, they invade to insure a buffer zone so that any missile attack would have to be long range. Problem is though, as soon as they invade, the UN forces them to give the territory back after they have reached cease fire settlements. Then it happens all over again. Seriously, I think Isreal should just invade and take over Gazza and refuse to give it back ever again. F&*£ the back lash. It can't be as bad as continued missile bombardment. And the US is blocking UN calls for a ceasfire... WTF?! As soon as there is a cease fire Hamas will start re-building there missile stocks again.... it happens every time. When Arab nations demand Hamas be dismantled completely and immediately then their demands might be worth hearing. Until then let them play switch.... I think their demands are the destruction of Isreal. Does anyone more informed than I actually know what they are demanding this time? As far as I can tell it is all about the abolishion of an Israili state completely - leaving the whole teritory in Arab hands. They know they can't win a war against Isreal so they are are trying to provoke them into war in an attempt to get the other Arab nations to join in. Same old storey. (Darn it!! I said I wasn't going to get draw into this conversation!!) Edited January 4, 2009 by DrP
bascule Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 A ceasefire won't likely accomplish anything. It would stop Israel from using white phosphorus on civilians in Gaza
mooeypoo Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 As far as I know, checked and rechecked and asked, Israel is *NOT* using chemical warfare. Do you have anything to corroborate this claim, bascule? The diplomatic stand-off bought time for Israel, which is believed to be using controversial white phosphorus shells over civilian targets, to continue its operation in Gaza, with peace efforts making no progress. President Peres of Israel told ABC that his country intended “neither to occupy Gaza nor to crush Hamas, but to crush terror. And Hamas needs a real and serious lesson. They are now getting it.” It seems you URL is not making this claim, it's repeating a rumor. I'd say it's worth verification if you're using it as a claim, wouldn't you?
bascule Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Photos of the alleged use of white phosphorus and the victims are available on LiveLeak: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=99c_1231061813
doG Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Photos of the alleged use of white phosphorus and the victims are available on LiveLeak: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=99c_1231061813 Your own leak doesn't even support your claim: Banned under the Geneva convention for being classed a Chemical Weapon,White Phosphorus is being used by IDF in a similar way to US forces in the Fallujah,Iraq siege that was sparked by the Fallujah residents dragging the charred and mutilated Blackwater Security team's bodies around the town behind a truck,then the little that remained of these men was hung from a bridge in the city.White phospho More..rus is allowed to be used militarily in smoke grenades, used as cover from snipers and for illumination when dispersed into the air from artillery,mortar or launched from an appropriate aerial platform.After Fallujah there where cases of deaths recorded that could not be attributed to gunshot wounds or fragmentation leading some Iraqi Doctors wondering where they the "field trial" for a microwave weapon or chemical attack.It seemed that WP had been used on Fallujah but only for "illumination purposes" and in accordance with with U.N. guidelines[/b'] it seems. SO it seems WP might have been used by the IDF according to U.N. guidelines for illumination purposes only. Not at all like It would stop Israel from using white phosphorus on civilians in Gaza Tell us, what do you think would stop Hamas from attacking civilians again and again, cease fire after cease fire after cease fire...ad nauseum?
bascule Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Your own leak doesn't even support your claim Well, give it a few days for the dust to settle. In the meantime speculation mounts: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1105127/Gaza-death-toll-soars-past-500-Israel-accused-using-banned-phosphorus-shells.html
mooeypoo Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Bascule, speculation doesn't mount, the sites just reiterate the same rumor. If any ONE of those sites would give a shred of evidence this is happening, then perhaps we could all say it's mounting.. but really, they're all just repeating each other about "maybe" Isarel's using it. That doesn't add any credence to the rumor.
john5746 Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 I would like to know what an appropriate response would be. Should Israel shoot missles blindly at Gaza every now and then? Should they send police forces in there to be kidnapped, tortured, dragged around for display and then traded for criminals? Do people think this is a game or something? IMO, the arab nations should come up with a solution to the problem such as: Have the people of Gaza slowly removed from the area into other arab nations. or make it a part of Eqypt and they will be responsible for them or make it a viable, self sustaining area(but first, Hamas and any other criminals need to be removed) Can this small area be viable? Not sure. The international community could offer some funds for any of these situations, but the money would have to somehow be kept from funding weapons.
Sayonara Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 This image is/was on the front page of the BBC news website, linked to an article about Gaza. What is the explodey cloudy thingy? Is it something which a bunch of projectiles have converged on, or did it shoot out a load of missiles before going "poof"? Slightly off-topic I know, but I for one would like to know what is being deployed in this round.
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