Israel vs Hamas, Round 5,672,341,566,125

[padren]

Well, give it a few days for the dust to settle. In the meantime speculation mounts:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1105127/Gaza-death-toll-soars-past-500-Israel-accused-using-banned-phosphorus-shells.html

 

If this turns out to be true, then it would definitely be an example of Israel being out of line - but it doesn't change the events going on there.

 

I don't think any war tends to "just stop" with a cease fire when one side uses banned tactics. I am sure there is a list of grievances on both sides a mile long going back to the birth of Israel and just recently Hamas has all but promised to kidnap and torture Israeli forces.

 

 

Personally I am all for a cease fire and a peaceful solution, but as long as Hamas so much as sanctions missile attacks on Israel from within Gaza while in power in Gaza, they are providing an open invitation for warfare and civilian casualties in their own streets. Whether or not Israel is too indiscriminate in their targets is a valid but separate issue, but firing missiles into Israel isn't something you can do and expect no military response.

 

What is the difference between launching missiles into Israel, and marching ground forces into Israel? I am open to learning if there is a difference in this case, but they both seem like acts of war to me right now.

[doG]

Tell us, what do you think would stop Hamas from attacking civilians again and again, cease fire after cease fire after cease fire...ad nauseum?

 

You missed this one bascule....

[Pangloss]

This image is/was on the front page of the BBC news website, linked to an article about Gaza.

 

What is the explodey cloudy thingy? Is it something which a bunch of projectiles have converged on, or did it shoot out a load of missiles before going "poof"?

 

Slightly off-topic I know, but I for one would like to know what is being deployed in this round.

 

 

Oh my god, it's the Flying Spaghetti Monster!!!!

 

But seriously, it looks like normal munitions to me. They do make a lot of smoke. Just because the WTC towers fell vertically doesn't mean they were imploded.

 

But nothing wrong with asking questions, of course.

[mooeypoo]

I have to say, that picture reminded me of War of the Worlds.

 

Just sayin'.

[ecoli]

 

As soon as there is a cease fire Hamas will start re-building there missile stocks again.... it happens every time.

Not to mention that Hamas tended to ignore the last cease fire. What did they expect would happen?

 

Though perhaps it was strategic... launch a few rockets to provoke an aggressive attack and then "sit back" and let the pro-palestinian UN and media take care of the rest.

[bascule]

You missed this one bascule....

 

Is the reciprocity deserved?

[mooeypoo]

Is the reciprocity deserved?

Why not? It was a good point, made politely.

[bascule]

Why not? It was a good point, made politely.

 

I meant the force Israel has used against Hamas...

[mooeypoo]

I meant the force Israel has used against Hamas...

Ah, well, in that case, I think you should ask the people of Southern Israel who lived under constant missile fire for eight years.

[ecoli]

Is the reciprocity deserved?

of course not... especially not for the innocent palestinians who are dying. But, like mooey says, innocent israelis (and not just the jews) are being targeting and killed by hamas rockets. This is not deserved either.

 

Bascule - in your opinion what would be an appropriate (and effective) reponse from Israel (keeping in mind that cease fires have been largely ineffective).

[Mr Skeptic]

This image is/was on the front page of the BBC news website, linked to an article about Gaza.

 

What is the explodey cloudy thingy? Is it something which a bunch of projectiles have converged on, or did it shoot out a load of missiles before going "poof"?

 

Slightly off-topic I know, but I for one would like to know what is being deployed in this round.

 

 

Whatever it is, it certainly didn't explode much. The pieces that fell, leaving a smoke trail, hardly separated and seem mostly controlled by wind, and burned out shortly before reaching the ground. Also, it is directly over a city. My guess is that it is some kind of lighting.

[mooeypoo]

It's not like Israel reacted with excess force with the first missile fired. We're talking about EIGHT YEARS of constant attack from the Gaza strip, while talks were attempted again and again, while Israel evacuated *ALL* of the settlements in Gaza (one-sidedly, btw), while ceasefire after ceasefire was overturn by Hamas' missiles. While a soldier was kidnapped. While terrorist cells went into Israel through tunnels and commited terrorist attacks on innocent civilians inside Israel.

 

Eight years.

 

How long would you think the USA (or any other country) would wait and talk while its citizens are being targetted on a daily basis?

I would be surprised if anyone would wait a matter of months, let alone eight years.

 

 

Really.. it's not as simple as saying that Israel just reacted. This has been an ongoing situation. The media, however, has a tendency to broadcast the bloodier/messier/"weak-are-suffering" message, on the expense of balance.

[Mr Skeptic]

Maybe Israel could demand restitution from the population from which attacks are launched? This would cause the terrorists to become a stench to the locals, while not providing the violent reaction that would assist them with their recruitment efforts.

[mooeypoo]

It's not that simple; the terrorists are using the homes of civilians, or mosques, or hospitals, or schools to launch attacks. On top of that, as you could probably see from their reaction towards the "opposition party" members (here, for example) they are not very "friendly" to people who oppose them. So the population doesn't oppose.

 

Gaza is not rich, as you may well know, the leaders are the ones often taking the money the world is sending over (point in case: Arafat and his wife). On top of that, they are shooting and killing aid workers. Electrical company crew were shot dead for coming to fix electrical lines, and a few truck drivers were shot at as they were driving supplies and humanitarian aid in.

 

The claim that humanitarian aid does not enter gaza is a pure myth. In the past year 7000 trucks entered the strip under fire.

 

It's very difficult to talk "rationality" (restitution, compromise, etc, *on both sides*, btw) when the other side seems to act in extreme contrast to rationality.

[Pangloss]

Jimmy Carter likes to say that there can be no lasting agreement between two opposing peoples unless both of them win. In what way could both sides carve an acceptable victory out of the current situation? Clearly the Israelis are looking to stop the rocket attacks, so that's that side of it. What could the Palestinians receive at the moment that might convince them that stopping the rocket attacks is good for them?

[CaptainPanic]

I think that the world can be blamed for this crisis. They Palestinians had elected Hamas as their government through a fair election that was monitored by external observers. Nobody accepted because they're "terrorists".

 

All our governments seem to forget that at one point most, if not all, countries also fought an independence war, and our armies were called rebels or whatever term was fashion for non-governmental forces at that time.

 

If the current attitude towards terror organizations would have existed some centuries ago, the USA would still not have a government that was acknowledged by European countries - those rebels... founding fathers? You mean: "terrorists". And the world would still consider the Netherlands a rebel part of Spain. Ireland wouldn't be independent. Northern Ireland wouldn't have a government (Sin Fein is also a terror organization). All of Africa would still be a colony - at least on paper. France's government has had a rebel / terror government since 1789 (since they put the king under the guillotine). They didn't just kill the king, they terrorized the entire ruling class into oblivion. Yet, most of these rebellions are now celebrated.

 

But Hamas is not allowed to form a democratic government, because they are terrorists. Pity for Hamas that the rules have changed... or has it? Didn't Kosovo just become independent? Didn't Taiwan become sort of independent? Should we support China in its suppression of Tibet?

 

And then there's the fact that the chosen part of Hamas, those in the government, don't fire rockets. If you hold a government accountable for each and every (terror) action that its citizens commit, then everybody might as well declare war on everybody else. There will be terror attacks by some Palestinians for a long time... just like some Israelis will continue to fight in their colonies / settlements (also terror). It's like a classroom full of kids. Tell them to shut up, and there is always one kid who has to say something after the teacher told them to be quiet. And all our governments pretend they don't understand that terrorism works the same way.

 

As for a solution at this moment. I would send in the blue helmets. Lots of them. Gaza is not a big area. It's sort of in the backyard of Europe, so I think especially European countries should all send a couple thousand peace keepers. Perhaps we should even send unarmed troops to keep the peace... but lots of them. And perhaps some Middle Eastern countries could should assist as well - all of it under a UN flag.

[padren]

I think that the world can be blamed for this crisis. They Palestinians had elected Hamas as their government through a fair election that was monitored by external observers. Nobody accepted because they're "terrorists".

I wouldn't say it hasn't been accepted - I could be wrong, but - Israel has adhered to cease fires and hasn't tried to occupy Gaza, so what are they denying the Palestinians? Isn't it Hamas that publicly refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

 

All our governments seem to forget that at one point most, if not all, countries also fought an independence war, and our armies were called rebels or whatever term was fashion for non-governmental forces at that time.

 

 

If the current attitude towards terror organizations would have existed some centuries ago, the USA would still not have a government that was acknowledged by European countries - those rebels... founding fathers? You mean: "terrorists". And the world would still consider the Netherlands a rebel part of Spain. Ireland wouldn't be independent. Northern Ireland wouldn't have a government (Sin Fein is also a terror organization). All of Africa would still be a colony - at least on paper. France's government has had a rebel / terror government since 1789 (since they put the king under the guillotine). They didn't just kill the king, they terrorized the entire ruling class into oblivion. Yet, most of these rebellions are now celebrated.

Those independence/celebrated rebels didn't break cease fires by firing on foreign soil for years at a time. If the US had continued to attack England after the fighting had stopped, or the same in Ireland, do you think they'd have been celebrated?

 

And then there's the fact that the chosen part of Hamas, those in the government, don't fire rockets. If you hold a government accountable for each and every (terror) action that its citizens commit, then everybody might as well declare war on everybody else. There will be terror attacks by some Palestinians for a long time... just like some Israelis will continue to fight in their colonies / settlements (also terror). It's like a classroom full of kids. Tell them to shut up, and there is always one kid who has to say something after the teacher told them to be quiet. And all our governments pretend they don't understand that terrorism works the same way.

As you said yourself "They Palestinians had elected Hamas as their government through a fair election that was monitored by external observers." and Hamas sanctions, if not carries out these Missile attacks.

 

Unless the Palestinian people are screaming for a new election, they are complicit in their elected government's attacks on Israeli soil. This isn't the "one kid" but the policy their elected party has publicly chosen.

 

Did I miss some article of Hamas condemning the missile attacks, and promising to pursue the rogue criminals?

 

As for a solution at this moment. I would send in the blue helmets. Lots of them. Gaza is not a big area. It's sort of in the backyard of Europe, so I think especially European countries should all send a couple thousand peace keepers. Perhaps we should even send unarmed troops to keep the peace... but lots of them. And perhaps some Middle Eastern countries could should assist as well - all of it under a UN flag.

 

Would you volunteer? I would love it if this could work but haven't they already shot and killed aid workers and fired on trucks with humanitarian supplies?

 

 

 

I would really like to know what demands they feel are needed for peaceful coexistence to be possible. As it stands now, it seems they have ruled out peaceful coexistence.

[doG]

Is the reciprocity deserved?

 

Very much so, it seems to be the only thing that works...

[mooeypoo]

Jimmy Carter likes to say that there can be no lasting agreement between two opposing peoples unless both of them win. In what way could both sides carve an acceptable victory out of the current situation? Clearly the Israelis are looking to stop the rocket attacks, so that's that side of it. What could the Palestinians receive at the moment that might convince them that stopping the rocket attacks is good for them?

One could say (and did) that the Palestinians have won the 2000 intifada. And the 1982 intifada, depends who you're asking.

 

But I tend to agree with this, only on a different angle. Without meaning to be racist, the arab nations have a lot of 'respect' and 'honor' issues; they received a heavy blow when they attacked Israel in the wars (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973) and lost. The peace with Egypt was possible (in 1978) only after they virtually won the 1973 war (lost in terms of "territory" but they celebrate as win, and they probably should, judging from the death toll/damage to israel).

 

 

But it's not like we're fighting army-vs-army this time. where you can examine the "goals" and decide a win or something.

We're fighting a group of terrorists that are targetting civilians *ON PURPOSE*.

We can't afford to let them "win"...

 

And if they're not even willing to talk about a compromise, we're stuck.

 

Israel gave out land ALREADY so it's really unfair from the world to say they're not willing to give land and compromise.

[CaptainPanic]

I wouldn't say it hasn't been accepted - I could be wrong, but - Israel has adhered to cease fires and hasn't tried to occupy Gaza, so what are they denying the Palestinians? Isn't it Hamas that publicly refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

No, the European Union, the USA and of course Israel have no diplomatic relation with the Palestinian government. They immediately replied to the election result that this is no government they will do business with (using whatever diplomatic words to express that).

 

I still claim that Israel and the Palestinians have both adhered to the cease fires. But that individuals have sabotaged this. But indeed, Hamas has some rather radical ideas... it does not want Israel to exist. And the Israeli government does not want an independent Palestina to exist. (I mean, you cannot say that the Israelis have been cooperative in the negotiations - or that discrimination and building a wall are going to help). Both groups must keep their radicals to support them.

 

Those independence/celebrated rebels didn't break cease fires by firing on foreign soil for years at a time. If the US had continued to attack England after the fighting had stopped, or the same in Ireland, do you think they'd have been celebrated?

Umm... IRA were fighting not long ago. Now they're in the government.

When the Hamas were actually elected, it was relatively peaceful - you could argue that there was a cease fire. Perhaps there was some kid throwing rocks. Not rockets in that period (that I know of). That started later again.

 

As you said yourself "They Palestinians had elected Hamas as their government through a fair election that was monitored by external observers." and Hamas sanctions, if not carries out these Missile attacks.

 

Unless the Palestinian people are screaming for a new election, they are complicit in their elected government's attacks on Israeli soil. This isn't the "one kid" but the policy their elected party has publicly chosen.

 

Did I miss some article of Hamas condemning the missile attacks, and promising to pursue the rogue criminals?

Good point there... although we should all realize that it might not make the Western news if a body of the Palestinian government (which is not acknowledged) condemns this. I mean, Saddam also had weapons of mass destruction, and Al Qaida was working with him to bring down the entire western civilization. Right? We all know how true that was. Isreal is our ally, so news is always a little more positive about them... same as about Afghanistan. Taliban: bad, others: good. Did you know there has never been a war crime in Afghanistan by allied soldiers (according to the news)?

 

It is of course the question (as always when kids are fighting) who started? Were the Israelis first with stealing land from the Palestinians? Did the Palestinians or Israelis shoot first? Is it an attack on a sovereign nation when you build a wall around it?

 

Would you volunteer [to wear a blue helmet in Gaza]? I would love it if this could work but haven't they already shot and killed aid workers and fired on trucks with humanitarian supplies?

I would not volunteer. I work on sustainable energy, I am more useful here than over there. However, there are people who are in the army for this. They know they can be sent on peace missions.

As far as I know, the Israelis recently stopped ships carrying aid. I haven't heard of anyone getting shot or killed, although in the last week hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed.

 

I would really like to know what demands they feel are needed for peaceful coexistence to be possible. As it stands now, it seems they have ruled out peaceful coexistence.

Both parties have. Both are pissing off the other side... whether it's by throwing rockets or by building a wall and turning Gaza into a giant prison...

Somebody should have the wisdom to stop. And since Israel is the only party in this fight with a government that is acknowledged by other countries, I don't understand why they're not summoned to stop this pointless violence.

 

p.s. Traffic incidents still kill more people in Israel than those Hamas rockets.

[Sisyphus]

You certainly can't afford to let the terrorists win on their own terms, and Israel obviously needs to defend itself militarily. But if Palestinians on the whole have different ideas of what would be a "winning" situation, then maybe they can be obliged. Which is why this conflict, like any other, ultimately comes down to a culture war. And yeah, that's not simple. Bitterness over humiliation and defeat seems to me (from my armchair halfway around the world) to be a big part of Palestinian anger, and that sort of thing often doesn't respond to rationality. So treating them fairly and even generously is necessary but probably not sufficient. What would be sufficient, I don't know, but whatever the magic recipe is, I'm sure a lot of time is a key ingredient.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Sisyphus
double post removed

[ecoli]

 

I still claim that Israel and the Palestinians have both adhered to the cease fires. But that individuals have sabotaged this.

Are you making the claim that it was not Hamas launching the rockets (supporting those who were launching them). Good luck proving that one.

 

 

Isreal is our ally, so news is always a little more positive about them...

I think we've been watching different news sources.

 

p.s. Traffic incidents still kill more people in Israel than those Hamas rockets.

so what... are this purposeful deaths? No, they're accidents.

[tomgwyther]

The middle east: The worlds largest outdoor lunatic asylum.

 

Most of the trouble we see in this area is due to the west fiddling around with it too much.

My part time job at the local university engineering faculty has allowed my to speak with many Iraqis, Iranians, Saudis and Palestinians. When I ask them

“What does the Arab/Muslim world want?”

The answer is

“To be left alone.”

 

Agreed; the random firing of rockets into Israel in order to kill, is utterly unjustifiable, but it is not surprising given the circumstances.

If you subject a population of people (Any population of people) to the conditions seen in Gaza; there will inevitably be a small percentage of that population who will become violent against whom they see as their enemy/suppressor.

 

If there is to be any remedy to the situation in Gaza, the first step should be to re-instate a number of basic human rights to the Palestinian people

Such as:

 

Article 9

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

 

Article 15-1

Everyone has the right to a nationality.

 

Article 17

Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

 

Article 23.1

Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

 

Article 25-1

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services.

 

These are all things which have been denied the people living in Gaza since the 50s. The situation is similar to the apartheid regime we saw in Africa, and dare I say it, not too dissimilar to the Nazi treatment of Jews in 1930s Germany. After which the state of Israel was founded based on the above UN Human rights declaration.. (An abject irony me thinks.)

 

Now add to this that staple of SFN's antagony; religion.

On the one hand we have a group of people who's God has declared that a specific piece of land must belong to them, which subsequently led to people being forcibly removed from their homes and put into what is effectively a ghetto.

On the other we have a group of people who's God demonstratively allows them to kill and be killed on the promise that they will become martyrs and ascend to paradise.

 

I quick fix to this situation would be to take a time machine and stop this ludicrous situation from ever happening. But in the absence of a flux capacitor equipped De Lorian this approach is unrealistic.

 

On a more realistic note, a good start point would be for one side to take the moral high ground and swallow it's pride.

To Hamas I say

“Gandhi did it, Martin Luther did it, Nelson Mandela did it, all through non violence, through which they all archived 'martyrdom'

To Israel I say.

Stop behaving like the Third Reich at the hands of which your people suffered such incalculable pain, and understand that we are all just passing guests on this little blue planet, so we had best try to get along with our neighbours.

[iNow]

And then there's the fact that the chosen part of Hamas, those in the government, don't fire rockets. If you hold a government accountable for each and every (terror) action that its citizens commit, then everybody might as well declare war on everybody else. There will be terror attacks by some Palestinians for a long time... just like some Israelis will continue to fight in their colonies / settlements (also terror). It's like a classroom full of kids. Tell them to shut up, and there is always one kid who has to say something after the teacher told them to be quiet. And all our governments pretend they don't understand that terrorism works the same way.

If a bunch of citizens from the northern United States fired nearly 100 rockets per day into Canada, and the US government didn't stop it, you are essentially arguing that the US government cannot be held complicit, which is utterly ridiculous. Even if Hamas government is not firing missiles themselves (which is incredibly questionable, and hard to prove per ecoli's point above), they are the government in charge of those peoples, and therefore the responsibility falls to them to handle it effectively and make the violence stop.

 

If a kid in that teacher's classroom starts beating up another kid, the teacher is responsible for stopping it. It's really that simple, and if the teacher fails to stop it, instead starts writing incendiary letters to all who will listen about how the other kids deserve it (wipe Israel off the map), then the teacher is no longer as innocent as you suggest.

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

archived 'martyrdom'

To Israel I say.

Stop behaving like the Third Reich at the hands of which your people suffered such incalculable pain, and understand that we are all just passing guests on this little blue planet, so we had best try to get along with our neighbours.

 

That's quite a double-standard, though. You would not likely argue the same thing if people living in Cuba started lobbing missiles into Florida, killing your grandparents and cousins. You'd INSIST that your government, with fiery rage respond with malice. This isn't some academic exercise, and while I appreciate the larger desire for peace, we must remain pragmatic and keep our feet grounded.

[tomgwyther]

If Cuba started firing missiles at Florida, although utterly abhorrent, It would be easy to understand why Cuban people were doing it. Also Cuba differs in that it is an independant state and it's inhabitants aren't displaced American citizens

 

And for the record, my friends and relatives don't live in Florida, they live in London, where one of them 'Lydia' had her place of work destroyed by an IRA bomb.

My government didn't respond with firey rage and malice, they got talking and now we have peace.

Edited January 5, 2009 by tomgwyther