Barack the Magic Negro

[iNow]

No, I don't think it's as cut and dry as you suggest (nor do I think I'm wrong). There are certain actions and comments which are motivated by truth and greater moral good. There are other actions and comments which are motivated only by the desire to disparage. The latter is the only one which is both unproductive and detrimental to society. The former, however, is vital to our collective advancement.

 

 

Or... at least IMO that is...

 

 

 

EDIT: It's tasteless, Pangloss. Calling bush a chimp, or saying he looks like one, is relatively topical in terms of humor or criticism... but to call the next president of our great nation "the magic negro" and bring up some dragon fairy tale... It's just tasteless, and it shows a lack of class and also a lack of connection to the reality in which we all exist.

Edited January 2, 2009 by iNow

[Pangloss]

There are certain actions and comments which are motivated by truth and greater moral good.

 

...

 

The former' date=' however, is vital to our collective advancement.[/quote']

 

What truth is uncovered by displaying images of George Bush alongside images of a monkey?

 

You seem to be saying that disrespectful discourse and ridicule are justifiable -- even "vital" -- when the goal is societal benefit -- presumably with yourself and people who think like you as the judge. It actually strikes you as a good idea that when logic and reason fail to achieve your goals, ridicule and misdirection are appropriate tools?

 

I'm afraid you'll have to pardon me if I disagree.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Pangloss

[Sisyphus]

Maybe it's derogatory towards chimps.

[DJBruce]

Blatant attacks on a persons character and or personal appearance that are based on blatant mistruths and lies have no benefit to society what so ever. They serve no other purpose in my opinion than to advance ones own personal goals. Attacks based on credible evidence or that discuses valid issues are the only type of attacks that have benefit towards society.

 

As for the comparison both are attacks that serve no other purpose than to defame a persons character by making blatantly untruthful statements and comparisons. The "Barrack the Magic Negro" song and the Bush-Chimp comparisons are both wrong and have no place in society. So in my opinion it does not matter which is worse because they are both wrong.

[ParanoiA]

And yet, they are both funny.

 

Maybe this falls under artistic license. Music, film, painting, drama, comedy, whatever art form you're engaged in, there is no imperative for critical thought. That's not the point of art. Art is more about feeling and emotion. If you're looking for "benefit to society" in art, then you're looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place.

 

Put another way, I've always viewed art ( or at least political stuff ) as the passionate expression of emotional conclusions. There's no critical thinking taking place, as that's antithetical to the ends. John Lennon sings about Gimme Some Truth and I go apeshit with glee because of the passion. Critically? The truth is up to me to find, not up to anyone else to provide.

 

This song is just an expression of emotional frustration enjoyed by those who can identify with it in some capacity. It's not thoughtful. There's no philosophical or political point really to be gained. It's just art. I don't give it credit and responsibility that it hasn't earned. Same with the Bush-monkey bashing. It's funny. It hasn't earned any respect beyond that, so I see no need to criticize it beyond that.

 

 

 

No, the problem with these things, as usual, is the ears and eyes that soak up the message. We enjoy art and use it to grow ourselves philosophically. We take art too seriously and pretend as if the message codified in the drama is a thought out conclusion. It's not. It's an emotional conclusion that doesn't have to be critically correct in the least. It can be a total lie and still be appreciated. That's what is so wonderful about it.

[Pangloss]

Well yes, there is that. Politically-biased humor can be a riot, and not all of it is detrimental.

 

[iNow]

You guys certainly raise some good points. I can say that, looking back, my problem is specifically with the use of the word "negro," not with the fact that their is disparaging humor. In my experience, since I was born, the ONLY people to use that word have been ignorant, hateful bigots, so when I hear it now being used by Republicans it reminds me of those past experiences, and reinforces some of my existing negative feelings about recent Republican activity, policies, and motivations.

 

I mean, why not just call him a magic jiggaboo? It's the word that bothers me, not the disparagement.

[bascule]

You guys certainly raise some good points. I can say that, looking back, my problem is specifically with the use of the word "negro," not with the fact that their is disparaging humor.

 

Yes, I entirely agree, and in response to:

 

Setting the specific comparison aside for the moment (even though I believe you're wrong), do you disagree with my point that that sort of thing is both unproductive and detrimental to society?

 

I have nothing against people poking fun at a president. I'm not saying a line was crossed in regard to "Barack the Magic Negro" but I'd say it's more offensive than comparing Bush to monkeys. I don't see either as being unproductive or detrimental to society per se.

 

In my experience, since I was born, the ONLY people to use that word have been ignorant, hateful bigots, so when I hear it now being used by Republicans it reminds me of those past experiences, and reinforces some of my existing negative feelings about recent Republican activity, policies, and motivations.

 

Yeah, what it really comes down to is I'm not black so I don't know how to react, but "negro" isn't a word which I've ever heard used with anything but negative connotations.

 

Having read the strange backstory regarding "Barack the Magic Negro" originating from a column written by a black gay man, I'm even more confused as to what to think.

[Pangloss]

I respect that. I also recognize that my centrism is no less ideological in nature than anybody else's opinions, when you boil it all down. In the end perhaps we'd be no better off if everyone was a centrist. For that reason perhaps it's occasionally productive to ridicule. I do think that winning hearts and minds over to more intelligent courses of action can require action on many fronts.

 

You know, the reason that stuff like that Bush-monkey picture or the "Magic Negro" song don't bother me is because I know I'm going to take the time to delve deeper before I make a decision myself -- I'm not swayed by such 'arguments' anymore, not since I started paying attention to issues and thinking more critically about them. I don't react, I think. Or at least I try to!

 

My point being, that's what I think we should be striving for -- getting people to think rather than react to emotional button-pushing based on prejudices and preconceptions. We should be presenting our arguments, but also encouraging the opposition. Bring the opposing argument right out in the cold light of day, ala Kitzmiller v Dover. Hold it up to the spotlight and see what happens.

[iNow]

OT, but you know they're still trying to win that stupid case.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/01/it_really_sucks_to_be_casey_lu.php

[DrDNA]

It's downright scary to me. The Repoobs I know are waiting for their own Barack to surface and cling to him with all the resources they can muster.

 

The Repub party, the party which has abandoned conservative ideals, the party which has sent us down the creek, the party to which I happen to be registered for voting purposes, had its chance.

 

There was a brilliant, eloquent speaker and devout keeper of the true conservative faith by the name of Dr Alan Keys that ran against Mr Obama for the Senate seat in 2004.

 

My party gave Mr Keys so little support in the race for the 2004 Senate seat that Mr Obama beat the living tar out of him......and he was forced quietly into the night, never to be heard from again.....

 

I don't necessarily blame them; who needs Dr Keys when we have perfectly good white folk like John the Angry Old Man, Joe the Plumber and Sarah the Foreign Relations Expert?

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The Barack is a magic negro stuff hits countless americans, disrespects our past struggles, and laughs at the battles we won to make equality a reality.

 

I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the overwhelming majority of white Americans (or brown, yellow, or tan Americans for that matter) did NOT fight ANY battles for equality, nor would they now, nor at some later date.

 

Furthermore, as the head of a racially mixed (vanilla/chocolate) family, I can state with certainty that "racial equality" is NOT a reality in much of the country; including but not limited to housing, many of our public institutions, and employment and advancement opportunities.

 

He may be their president but they dam* sure wouldn't let him marry into their family, perform a medical operation on them, or even want him to move next door.

 

Try fixing yourself up like a person who has dark skin and try to rent an apartment or even get a cab in any major city.

Then, if you're feeling really brave, dress up like that and go to a county fair in coal mine country (for example, rural eastern KY or West VA). Make sure you have good medical and life insurance before you go.

 

BTW: At least 30% of the white people that voted for Obama would not have voted for him if he did not have a white mother and was raised to a large extent by white grand parents. Sad but true.

Edited January 13, 2009 by DrDNA
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[iNow]

My point was that use of the word negro in political humor is a problem of racism, and it should be shunned. Your comments above about me getting beaten bloody or unable to rent an apartment if I pretended to be black only reinforce my primary point.

 

Also, since you seem to think it matters, my last girlfriend was black, but that's a pissing contest I don't think helps this conversation forward in anyway so can be disregarded.

[Phi for All]

The Repub party, the party which has abandoned conservative ideals, the party which has sent us down the creek, the party to which I happen to be registered for voting purposes, had its chance.

 

There was a brilliant, eloquent speaker and devout keeper of the true conservative faith by the name of Dr Alan Keys that ran against Mr Obama for the Senate seat in 2004.

 

My party gave Mr Keys so little support in the race for the 2004 Senate seat that Mr Obama beat the living tar out of him......and he was forced quietly into the night, never to be heard from again.....

 

I don't necessarily blame them; who needs Dr Keys when we have perfectly good white folk like John the Angry Old Man, Joe the Plumber and Sarah the Foreign Relations Expert?

Keyes debated really well in 2000. I liked McCain better back then too, but Keyes kicked his butt and W's too. It was a shame that the clear loser in those debates went on to serve two terms as the worst president of my lifetime.

 

I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the overwhelming majority of white Americans (or brown, yellow, or tan Americans for that matter) did NOT fight ANY battles for equality, nor would they now, nor at some later date.

In your opinion. If you want to provide anything to back this up, give me a definition of "battle for equality" that won't throw my own modest efforts out the window.

 

Furthermore, as the head of a racially mixed (vanilla/chocolate) family, I can state with certainty that "racial equality" is NOT a reality in much of the country; including but not limited to housing, many of our public institutions, and employment and advancement opportunities.

It's a reality in much more of the country than when *you* were born.

 

He may be their president but they dam* sure wouldn't let him marry into their family, perform a medical operation on them, or even want him to move next door.

He's a welcome member in my family, and I *wish* he would move from three doors down to next door; I'm not a big fan of the family to the west, they never come to the block parties. I don't get the doctor example; even my whitest relatives have raved about their black doctors, but I could see their asses pucker if a transfusion came from a black blood donor. We're talking about depression-era Missourans here with all sorts of misconceptions about science and hematology.

 

Try fixing yourself up like a person who has dark skin and try to rent an apartment or even get a cab in any major city.

I live in Denver, so you have to phone for any cab you might take. They don't roam the streets looking for fares like they do in other cities, except in front of the convention hall and the stock show.

 

Then, if you're feeling really brave, dress up like that and go to a county fair in coal mine country (for example, rural eastern KY or West VA). Make sure you have good medical and life insurance before you go.

Yeah, but you'd have to date your cousin and talk about NASCAR the whole time, so besides being brave you'd have to be stupid too. Think about what you're arguing for here.

 

BTW: At least 30% of the white people that voted for Obama would not have voted for him if he did not have a white mother and was raised to a large extent by white grand parents. Sad but true.

I don't like seeing figures like "at least 30%" without citing a poll or study, but hell, don't you realize what this means if it's true? It means that black people can still be president despite the burden of being raised by old white people!

[DrDNA]

It's a reality in much more of the country than when *you* were born.

If my bones weren't so fragile, I'd teach you a thing or two about respecting your elders........

 

I could see their asses pucker if a transfusion came from a black blood donor. We're talking about depression-era Missourans here with all sorts of misconceptions about science and hematology.

 

I don't like seeing figures like "at least 30%" without citing a poll or study, but hell, don't you realize what this means if it's true?

Ok. At least 30% of the white people that *I* know would not have voted for him. That includes high school dropouts, 4 yr degree and graduate and professional degrees.

Admittedly a non-statistically significant study, but it is true.

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In my experience, since I was born, the ONLY people to use that word have been ignorant, hateful bigots, so when I hear it now being used by Republicans it reminds me of those past experiences, and reinforces some of my existing negative feelings about recent Republican activity, policies, and motivations.

.

 

Negro Modelo beer is awesome! And Vinny Del Negro is an awesome basketball player.

 

On a more serious note, we have Negro Ensemble Company; an acclaimed historically African American theater company.

Most importantly, to me at least, we have the UNCF (United Negro College Fund) which I hope you will include on your charity-giving list.

 

Your comments above about me getting beaten bloody or unable to rent an apartment if I pretended to be black only reinforce my primary point.

Actually I missed it (the point).

Could you rephrase it?

Its been a long day, so it might just be me.

 

Also, since you seem to think it matters, my last girlfriend was black, but that's a pissing contest I don't think helps this conversation forward in anyway so can be disregarded.

I don't mean to be negative or derogatory, but I actually do NOT think that it matters.

Proverbial pissing contests aside, dating a "black" woman makes you a white guy that went out with a "black" woman.

For example, riding in an airplane makes me a passenger in an airplane.

It does not make me a pilot, or even a copilot or a navigator.

 

To your credit, it does show that you are open minded in such matters and that your are certainly not a bigot. All wonderful things, but they say nothing about living "the black experience".

 

However, actually having dark brown skin, having brown skinned children and brown skinned immediate family members....which have had to, do have to, and will continue to have to deal with racism and negative bias and all that it entails on a daily basis just might give one a different perspective on the matter.

When it impacts the well being of your family, your standard of living, your social life, your professional life, your income, your childrens' futures, etc, then it matters.

 

He's the black private dic who gets all the chicks.

And no one understands him but his woman.....

He's a bad mother......Watch your mouth....Hey, I'm talking about Shaft.

Edited January 14, 2009 by DrDNA
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[iNow]

No comment.

[DrDNA]

....give me a definition of "battle for equality" that won't throw my own modest efforts out the window.

 

A battle implies some sort of risk.

Anyone who refused to sit in the back of the bus was at risk.

Anyone who walked with MLK was at risk.

People that got dogs sicked on them or got sprayed with a fire hose because they refused to back down.

Anyone who repeatedly was thrown out of an all white restaurant, bathroom or water fountain......

Anyone who stood up for these people, putting their own and/or their familys' physical well being, financial status, professional status, social standing (for example) at risk.

Of course it does not have to be so dramatic, but I hope I'm showing my point.

 

Now that I think about it, to be honest, I don't think that *I* have fought any "battles for equality".

And I can't recall personally knowing anyone that has fought any "battles for equality".

Maybe that's because I was raised by a family of, and in a neighborhood of bigots.

But I also don't believe that there are that many people that have done so.

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No comment.

 

You missed me; didn't you?

Come on.

It's ok.

You can say it.

[iNow]

Negro Modelo beer is awesome! And Vinny Del Negro is an awesome basketball player.

I agree, that is one of my favorite beers, but it is clearly equivocation since it has zero to do with the discussion being had. Quit being so flippant, will ya? Humor is all well and good with friends over beers, but I'd at least like you to TRY to make a serious contribution to this thread before jumping in with your attempt at comedy. That's all.

 

 

On a more serious note, we have Negro Ensemble Company; an acclaimed historically African American theater company.

Right, and you'll notice that this company was founded in 1967, yet my very first comment in this thread spoke of how inappropriate that word's use is in 2008/2009. Sure, it can be "grandfathered" in, but that's not the case under discussion here.

 

 

Most importantly, to me at least, we have the UNCF (United Negro College Fund) which I hope you will include on your charity-giving list.

Again, incorporated in 1944. It's like you're arguing that it's okay to call black people "colored" since we have the NAACP (which was formed in 1909). Give me a break, already. Like I said, bombastic humor is all well and good, but I take this issue seriously. I'm sure you do, as well, but frankly neither your comments nor your tone demonstrate that one iota.

 

 

Actually I missed it (the point).

Could you rephrase it?

Sure. I see the "Barack the Magic Negro" song being used by the republican party in ad campaigns as inherently racist and it offends me deeply for it's lack of respect to our past, the still existing racial struggles in our nation, and the ignorance which is motivating it. I thought I made this clear already, but have now again stated my position for the benefit of moving this conversation passed the ridiculous muddied nonsense in which it currently finds itself.

 

 

Proverbial pissing contests aside, dating a "black" woman makes you a white guy that went out with a "black" woman.

For example, riding in an airplane makes me a passenger in an airplane.

It does not make me a pilot, or even a copilot or a navigator.

You have NO IDEA, do you? You know NOTHING about my relationship and what we experienced. Again though, not relevant to the thread. Let's move on.

[DrDNA]

In my experience, since I was born, the ONLY people to use that word have been ignorant, hateful bigots......................

............

I mean, why not just call him a magic jiggaboo? It's the word that bothers me, not the disparagement.

 

Who wrote this?????????

 

..............yet my very first comment in this thread spoke of how inappropriate that word's use is in 2008/2009. Sure, it can be "grandfathered" in, but that's not the case under discussion here.

 

........

 

Again, incorporated in 1944. It's like you're arguing that it's okay to call black people "colored" since we have the NAACP (which was formed in 1909). Give me a break, already.

 

You are inconsistent.

I agree, that is one of my favorite beers.

 

Please drink one.

Or at least put me on ignore.

Why torture yourself?

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The Barack is a magic negro stuff hits countless americans, disrespects our past struggles, and laughs at the battles we won to make equality a reality.

 

I'm still waiting for a detailed description of "our" past struggles and all the battles that "we" won.

How did "we" make equality a reality?

 

For that matter, exactly how is "equality a reality"?

Racial discrimination no longer exists?

Edited January 15, 2009 by DrDNA
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[ParanoiA]

I'm still waiting for a detailed description of "our" past struggles and all the battles that "we" won.

How did "we" make equality a reality?

 

For that matter' date=' exactly how is "equality a reality"?

Racial discrimination no longer exists?[/quote']

 

You're waiting for him to teach you history? I think the "we" here is obviously the institution of our republic. "We" includes the white folk that helped with these struggles, so "we" could also include "our" anglo blood line here as well, I suppose. Either way, "we" is quite appropriate.

 

And while you're waiting on clarity on "we", maybe you could clear up how picket signs and speeches add up to anything more than organized nagging. How exactly does that work out to a "battle"? Since you went there...

 

It may be helpful to appreciate those who work for the equality of others that already enjoy that status for themselves. It's understandable you would argue for your equal rights, but what about the men and women that stood next to you and argued for your rights - that already possessed those rights themselves? All they had to gain was moral conscience. Life and liberty was already theirs. I'm more impressed with people that do good in the face of zero gain.

 

True equality will likely never be a reality. Look at how much the rich minority are disparaged by society and targeted directly by the government for revenue. No one seems to be outraged by that "profiling" method. True equality is a cherry picking contest because it's humans distorting reality to satisfy their constructs of social justice.

 

But the concept of equality has a found a home in the ideological foundation of our country, not to mention its contagious success across the globe today. Hopefully after a few centuries, millenia maybe, it will be taken for granted because humans are past such trivial givens.

 

But hey, don't let me stop you from harassing iNow. He just read the history, didn't shy away from the ugly parts, absorbed the shame and took the lessons learned and now he tries to get us to practice what we preach. I'm not sure what you're trying to produce when you attempt to disparage him for being absent from the "battle", as you were, while still respecting the "battle". Weird.

[DrDNA]

I simply believe that it's similar to being a chicken hawk.

 

We as a people did very little.

A select few did (actually do something) and they paid prices for it.

And I will not claim credit for what they did; nor do I believe that anyone who did not directly participate in it and suffered the consequences should claim credit for it.

Call me opinionated, or rude or whatever, but this is the political forum and politics are entirely opinion.

This is my VERY strong opinion.

 

I give up, will move on, and I apologize to iNow and everyone else for crossing the line.

[ParanoiA]

I simply believe that it's similar to being a chicken hawk.

 

We as a people did very little.

A select few did (actually do something) and they paid prices for it.

And I will not claim credit for what they did; nor do I believe that anyone who did not directly participate in it and suffered the consequences should claim credit for it.

Call me opinionated, or rude or whatever, but this is the political forum and politics are entirely opinion.

This is my VERY strong opinion.

 

I give up, will move on, and I apologize to iNow and everyone else for crossing the line.

 

But one isn't claiming credit in the context iNow used it. That's why I find it so strange, because you seemed to have suddenly, arbitrarily, decided that someone's particular use of the pronoun "we" was a slithery attempt at taking credit for someone else's sacrifice. It just seemed quite clear to me that he was trying to speak for our republic.

 

I'm not saying I agree with his take on the word, but I do think I understand his intent, and it certainly wasn't to rob the good people you speak of, of their credit.

 

Your opinion is your opinion, so hopefully you're only apologizing for misunderstanding his use of "we". I don't see where you "crossed the line" anywhere; just typical forum exchange.

 

Good to see ya' back by the way..

[DrDNA]

That's why I find it so strange, because you seemed to have suddenly, arbitrarily, decided that someone's particular use of the pronoun "we" was a slithery attempt at taking credit for someone else's sacrifice. It just seemed quite clear to me that he was trying to speak for our republic.

Actually, I did interpret "we" and "us" as referring to a member(s) of some group that actually participated in some activity.

For example a group that might distinguish "us" from them.

It did not occur to me, nor did I consider, that it might imply or define a collective "we" or "us"; as in "we" the people of the US of A.

 

Interesting and perhaps even silly on my part.

 

At the time, I will admit that my judgment may have been influenced in some manner by my internal responses to what I view(ed) as several inappropriate derogatory comments about my communicative style.

I should not have allowed that to happen.

 

Your opinion is your opinion, so hopefully you're only apologizing for misunderstanding his use of "we". I don't see where you "crossed the line" anywhere; just typical forum exchange.

No.

I did apologized to iNow and to the collective for apparently crossing some line.

 

Good to see ya' back by the way..

THANKS (for your input/enlightenment and the "Good to....")!!