Aliens - evidence

[Mr Skeptic]

Eg if there is such a government conspiracy, how come the government allows a website to sell testimonies (which could be considered illegal testimonies). What if the government took down the real testimonies and replaced them with fake testimonies? Maybe you paid $5 for government approved testimonies about aliens

[CHAOS]

I would encourage you to ask any of the people that testified. I think it might be a bit suss if the Government tried to stop it, don't you? There hope is people will think exactly what most people do think, it's a load of nut jobs, and throw it into the

realm of crackpots, deluded, and conspiracy theories.

said Mr Skeptic.

[Mr Skeptic]

Another one: if the aliens are so advanced, how is it possible that we would detect them if they are acting covertly? Wouldn't it be more likely that even if aliens were visiting earth, everyone who claims to have seen them is actually deluded? After all, how many people can see one of the crude US stealth planes in operation, and why would an advanced alien perform worse than that?

[CHAOS]

I forgot to mention that you can buy a 2 hour DVD showing the interviews with these people...anyway, their crafts can me made visible and invisible. If you read the testimonies you will see how these people managed to come into contact with these aliens. I suggest you start with "Testimony that explains the secrecy"

 

Maj. George A. Filer, III: US Air Force (Ret.) said:

At times I used to carry nuclear weapons. In other words, I was mentally fit to carry nuclear weapons, but I’m not mentally fit if I see a UFO. This criticism and this ridicule have done more to keep the story coming out than almost anything else.

 

Jeo from http://www.philosophyforum.com said:

If someone asked me "why do you believe ET's have visited this planet", I usually point out that thousands of people world wide have claimed to have seen a UFO. So basically, I'm saying that, I'll make the bet, that just one of them has legitimately seen an Alien space craft. Meaning, the structure, movements and speed are nothing from this world. Everyone who disagrees with ET visits are basically saying that every single person who claims this, is either misinformed or lying. Really?

Edited January 20, 2009 by CHAOS

[mooeypoo]

CHAOS, I am curious, is there a government conspiracy you do not believe in? This isn't meant as an insult at all, I am curious as to where your personal level of skepticism goes. Can you give me an example, if there is one, of a conspiracy you don't believe in and what makes you skeptical of it?

 

I think we are not as different as you may think, other than this specific alien-visitation theory. You would be surprised, but when I was a bit younger, I was an absolute believer on that one.

 

In any case, I'd appreciate if you indulge me for a second - it will make a good exercize for the both of us, and will help me understand what you are trying to prove better.

 

~moo

[padren]

Chaos, just to give you a little friendly perspective:

 

1) There are theories involving a species of blue humans (or humanoids) living under Mount Shasta, and under the Gobi Desert.

 

2) There are theories involving "Lizard Men" impersonating humans and controlling world governments.

 

3) There are theories involving Nazi attempts at building a ship capable of reaching the planet "Alderbaren" (iirc) where apparently Aryan humans came from.

 

4) Theories involving Gray aliens being time traveling humans from the future.

 

 

The proponents of each of these various theories (and dozens of derivations and many others) can throw tons of information out "supporting" their view but none of it scientific. There are always reasons why the scientific evidence is suppressed or otherwise unavailable, but the problem is simple:

 

With so many people saying so many different things, what are you going to take "as fact" in general? Most of these theories are on about equal footing for evidence, yet are often contradictory to each other.

 

So, considering all the "white noise" of theories out there, the best method honestly, is to pick out the important ones?

 

The scientific method. It's worth noting too that the scientific method does not make the claim "if a theory cannot meet the standards of the scientific method, it is false" but rather "if a theory cannot meet the standards of the scientific method, it is not scientifically supported."

 

It's a tool people use to aid information selection in a sea of conflicting information that gets bigger every year. It is relied on far less for very "close to home" information (no one requires a friend to "prove" they went and saw a movie before discussing it) because there is so much less conflicting and unreliable information within that scope.

 

On the internet however, it's exceptionally helpful, and this site in particular tends to utilize it for the purposes stated above. These tests don't generally apply to philisophical discussions and philosophy boards, but this is a science forum, and I hope this helps you understand the sort of resistance you meet to the ideas you are advocating.

[mooeypoo]

Well said, padren, that is what I am trying to find out - CHAOS, let's see where our common-ground is, so we can try and see how we come to a logical conclusion about your theories.

 

If you tell me what you find to be false and what you find to be plausible, we can start seeing where we both stand in terms of our doubting senses, and see if there are any common threads we can use between known mythological stories and more substantiated, or more logical, theories.

 

Help us out, CHAOS, let's find that common ground so we can go from there?

[Mr Skeptic]

Well I have a theory but it is about what they have been doing (hyperthetically), not what they would do

 

Long ago, when Aliens first discovered Earth, they found that the most intelligent form of life was the primates. They were already so advances and intelligent by this stage that they were able to take their own DNA and through some extreme genetic engineering they were able to combine a tiny amount of it with the ape. In doing so, they produced a more intelligent and self-aware ape. This is backed up with scientific evidence, scientist are lacking in fossils that fill in the link of evolution at this stage. We were now infact, a genetic experiment created by these Aliens. They have been, and still are abducting people to implant "computer chips" that monitor our bodily functions, they also perform genetic experiments on people, some are returned, some are not. They watched us create a society, they watched us advance and learn until in recent years, we were advanced enough for them to show themselves to the Government we had established. Since then, the Government, or secret compartments of the Government have been working with Aliens. They have built and established massive underground infastructure, and all this is kept secret from the masses. These facilities contain extremely advanced technology such as free-energy and anti-gravity technology. This Alien race has absolute control and power over Earth. We are still seen as an experiment and property of this race. Now, this last bit of my theory, that I am about to explain, is the part I am least sure about. I believe that other Alien races have become aware of what the Aliens controlling us are doing. These are the UFO's that have been revealling themselves more and more, and taking people on trips through the galaxy, showing them extraordinary things. I believe this Alien race is preparing to war with the aliens controlling us, they are here to set us free and show us the truth about reality.

 

This is from a different thread, but I decided to reply here as it contains evidence. The portion I bolded means that your idea has a way to prove it, that no entity would be able to cover up as the evidence is free for all to see. Basically, what you are saying is that if you take the difference between ape DNA and human DNA, you end up with the alien DNA you say was added. Before I continue, is this a correct interpretation of what you are saying?

[bombus]

I'd love to believe this is proof - but it all seems to rely on the testimony of one guy. He could be a nutcase. A doctor yes, but a nutcase doctor...

[mooeypoo]

I'd love to believe this is proof - but it all seems to rely on the testimony of one guy. He could be a nutcase. A doctor yes, but a nutcase doctor...

 

Yes I agree, which is why evidence are not weighed by the person who speaks them, but rather by their own merit. Since there is nothing to corroborate this piece of suggested evidence other than the word of a single man, doctor or no doctor, this evidence is quite unsupported.

 

Which would make it not a proof, wouldn't it?

[CHAOS]

OK, I do not believe in all conspiracy theories, infact I do not 100% believe in any. The only thing I really, 100% believe is that aliens ARE visiting us. You say one person's point of view is not reliable, even if they are a doctor. Let me ask, how many people does it take before they are believed, before people instantly dismiss them as crazy or liars? I personally have MUCH MORE evidence than I will ever need, the evidence bucket is overflowing, yet it is made to look empty! It seems to me that when over 400 highly respected and reliable people come forward, there is something more than "crockery" at hand. You are all acting exactly how they hope you will, 100% skeptical no matter what is shoved in front of your face. So let me ask directly, are you saying all people who believe are liars or crazy? A recent study showed that 71% of Americans believe in UFO's. I think most would acknowledge that the Government does keep secrets, yet at the same time they claim to know the truth.

 

Sgt. Clifford Stone: US Army

 

During the discussion of UFOs, the question, ultimately, is going to come up, can any government keep secrets, let alone the U.S. Government? And the answer to that is unequivocally yes. But one of the greatest weapons the intelligence community has at their disposal is a predisposition by the American people, the American politicians and the debunkers — people who wish to try to debunk UFO information. They immediately come out and say, oh, we can’t keep secrets, we can’t keep secrets. Well, the truth is, yes, we can.

 

The National Reconnaissance Office remained secret for many, many years. The mere existence of the NSA remained secret. The development of the atomic weapon remained secret until once you exploded one you eventually had to tell some people what was going on.

 

And we are conditioned by our own paradigms not to accept the possibility or probability of a highly advanced intelligent civilization coming here to visit us. You have evidence in the form of highly credible reports of objects being seen, of the entities inside these objects being seen. Yet, we look for a prosaic explanation and we throw out the bits and pieces of the evidence that doesn't meet our paradigm. So it is a self-keeping secret. You can conceal it in plain sight. It is political suicide to go and start hitting up intelligence agencies to get this information released. So, most of your members of Congress, and I know I’ve worked with a lot of them along that line, will balk and try not to do it. I can name you three members of Congress that were point blank asked to have a congressional inquiry on what happened here at Roswell…

Edited January 21, 2009 by CHAOS

[mooeypoo]

OK, I do not believe in all conspiracy theories, infact I do not 100% believe in any. The only thing I really, 100% believe is that aliens ARE visiting us. You say one person's point of view is not reliable, even if they are a doctor. Let me ask, how many people does it take before they are believed, before people instantly dismiss them as crazy or liars? I personally have MUCH MORE evidence than I will ever need, the evidence bucket is overflowing, yet it is made to look empty! It seems to me that when over 400 highly respected and reliable people come forward, there is something more than "crockery" at hand. You are all acting exactly how they hope you will, 100% skeptical no matter what is shoved in front of your face.

 

Sgt. Clifford Stone: US Army

A thousand people can be wrong, too, regardless of who they are, without being liars. Please don't put words into my (or others') mouth. That's why evidence is weighed on the merit of the EVIDENCE and not on the merit of who supplied it. In contrast, an uneducated person can provide perfectly reasonable proof, regardless of who he is.

 

 

There has been a lot of instances throughout history that 400, 600, or 10,000 people saw the same phenomenon they can't explain. That doesn't automatically makes it what it is. On top of that, this isn't an unknown story; everyone knows this story, and it's enough you have one or two instances that you can't explain, reverting to this particular "abduction" story is not all that implausible. The fact they all share details is because they're all reiterating the story... have you ever seen "The 400"? Ever wonder why all those "abduction stories" in our world, ever, have surfaced at *once*, in multiple locations, knowing the same details without first sharing them or hearing them or speaking only of general-terms?

 

If you wake me in the middle of the night, I promise you I can tell you a compelling story about alien abduction that will be virtually indistiguishable from any other story like it. If you don't have basic rules to separate between what is OBJECTIVE and true and what is SUBJECTIVE and untrue, then how would you know which of these, if not all, are telling the truth, and which aren't?

 

 

Every evidence you will put forth with be weighed on its own merit, regardless of who supplied it. People can be wrong, and many of the phenomena you (and they) describe are very common; visual/auditory illusions are quite common (with everyone, btw, regardless of who they are).

 

Second, you didn't answer my question - I asked you to give me an example of a theory you are skeptical of. I have a meaning behind this, and htis meaning is to show you how you and I are not all THAT different from one another in our thinking. If you refuse to cooperate and decide to analyze our intentions for us, there's not much to be done in terms of debate, is there..

 

Third, I am giving you one last chance to cite your sources. This is pointless without citation, and it's *AGAIN* against forum rules.

 

 

 

~moo

[padren]

OK, I do not believe in all conspiracy theories, infact I do not 100% believe in any. The only thing I really, 100% believe is that aliens ARE visiting us. You say one person's point of view is not reliable, even if they are a doctor. Let me ask, how many people does it take before they are believed, before people instantly dismiss them as crazy or liars? I personally have MUCH MORE evidence than I will ever need, the evidence bucket is overflowing, yet it is made to look empty! It seems to me that when over 400 highly respected and reliable people come forward, there is something more than "crockery" at hand. You are all acting exactly how they hope you will, 100% skeptical no matter what is shoved in front of your face. So let me ask directly, are you saying all people who believe are liars or crazy? A recent study showed that 71% of Americans believe in UFO's. I think most would acknowledge that the Government does keep secrets, yet at the same time they claim to know the truth.

 

I believe the possibility that aliens are visiting us, but honestly it doesn't impact my day to day life very much, and I don't have first hand experiences so I don't draw conclusions.

 

The problem I ran into a long time ago (when I was a teenager, I followed this stuff and many other things very heavily, which ultimately led me to my current coping mechanisms) is that, there are lots of possible scenarios in which very big things are happening that we know very little about.

 

Are aliens visiting us? Are biblical end-times prophecies coming true? Are we really the souls of convicts tossed into volcanoes and blown up with nuclear bombs? Did the Mayans predict the end of the world? Was 911 a false flag operation? Did our own government assassinate JFK?

 

They are all alarming possibilities of great importance, yet they come at us from every angle and, if you focus on them too much, they end up dominating your focus.

 

In the end I finally came to the stance that I will evaluate things that occur as part of my direct personal experience more liberally and what comes at me from "the wide sea of information" more conservatively. If I see a UFO and an alien comes by for a chat I'll happily have that chat... but I won't be liable to post about it on a science forum because I'd have nothing to add there but an anecdote - and there are millions of anecdotes already.

 

 

If I had a conversation with Clifford Stone personally, I may find his testimony compelling, but I haven't, so I don't know his bias, his beliefs or how he may have interpreted his experiences. Even if he has something true to say in one sentence, the very next may be due to personal bias, and I have no tools to evaluate either.

 

I consider the odds of aliens visiting us right now to be rather unknowable, because the technology to get here opens up a ton of other factors: what ratio of worlds are worth visiting? How far is "civilization detection" technology advanced by the time you can achieve interstellar travel? Why would a secretive species have ships with visual spectrum lights?

We are so primitive by comparison we cannot come close to determining these factors. The odds are somewhere between 1:1 and 0:1. So, without the issue crossing into my realm of personal experience, it's really a non-issue. If I see an alien or a copy of "alien cover-up review" on my congressman's desk when he steps out to use the restroom, I'll re-evaluate it then, but till then, I have more tangible interests to attend to.

[Sayonara]

I really can't see why my other alien thread was closed so prematurely

Doesn't matter. Closed threads stay closed.

 

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