Kin selection and homosexuality

[Mokele]

Ok, guys, this is getting *way* off-topic.

[visceral]

As soon as the LGBT people get beyond their persecution complex they will get everything they deserve. It does them no good to blame the bad old bigots and other stupid people for their social vicissitudes. Every group I know of has social vicissitudes. Women get abused and murdered just for being women. Same's true for children and dogs. The most abused and murdered people in America are black heterosexual men. It helps to remember this when complaining too much about one's own vicissiudes.

 

I don't agree with this.

 

Most LGBT people I know about just go about their lives like every other normal person, and keep themselves to themselves. It's others who feel the need to bother them.

[Mr Skeptic]

Personally, your situation makes me a bit uncomfortable, but I apologize on behalf of all the people who feel the need to actually persecute you for your situation. I'd liken your situation to that of someone with a phantom limb. People will get quite uncomfortable with an amputee who says that his left foot is itchy or his left toe hurts, if his whole left leg was amputated. I'd imagine being in the wrong body would be equally unsettling.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb

 

People with phantom limb pain sometimes have to go to the doctor for relief, poor doctor.

 

Edit: Um, the point of this is that people are uncomfortable about phantom limbs (much like they are with LGBTs) but to my knowledge are not persecuted for it (unlike LGBTs).

Edited February 1, 2009 by Mr Skeptic

[Xittenn]

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm that's why gender disphoria is only classified as a psychological disorder under the circumstances of which are 'only when it causes the individual great discomfort!' I tend to fall into this category. Disphoria is not recognized by spell check........... hmph. OP we could start a new thread I don't want to get in trouble !

[scrappy]

I don't agree with this.

 

Most LGBT people I know about just go about their lives like every other normal person, and keep themselves to themselves. It's others who feel the need to bother them.

I would rather see the LGBT people reframe their appear for social acceptability around the concept of kin selection. That would cast them in a more positive light. But for them to make those in-your-face claims that their persecution is somehow worse than everyone else's is not a productive path to take. Instead they should emphasize the benefits of having LGBT people round, I think.

[Xittenn]

I would rather see the LGBT people reframe their appear for social acceptability around the concept of kin selection. That would cast them in a more positive light. But for them to make those in-your-face claims that their persecution is somehow worse than everyone else's is not a productive path to take. Instead they should emphasize the benefits of having LGBT people round, I think.

 

There's gotta be a better excuse for us than that...............no really! Why do we have to have an excuse for ourselves again. I think just like many other individuals within reality, individuals within the LGBT community just don't like getting beat up.....literally. I've had death threats, I've been beat up...................... I was fired a week after I had my name changed............... Do I just laugh about? I don't generally complain in fact this is probably the first time I've ever even thought to mention........... I do laugh about it in a crazy sort of OMG sort of 'if I could only' way. Well we survived evolution for whatever reason whether or not evolution had a choice in the matter. I can only hope I don't have to face to many nasties and be glad with what good comes from it all. In the end the only thing that really hurts is not the slander or the opinions but the fact that I may be facing the rest of my life very much so alone. It's hard enough to make friends let alone to find someone to be with. A lot of people have this problem for various reasons many of whom overcome. I hope to be one of them and I apologize to anyone I ever complain to ahead of time; sometimes the pot just boils over..............ras-le-bol!

[plektix]

I would rather see the LGBT people reframe their appear for social acceptability around the concept of kin selection.

No civil rights campaign has built itself around genetic or evolutionary arguments. Most people don't grok kin selection, but they do grok basic human rights.

 

But for them to make those in-your-face claims

We're only in your face when it's the only way for us to be heard. As buttacup and visceral both mentioned, most LGBT people just want to live our lives unhindered. But we'll get in people's faces if it's necessary to draw attention to the injustices we face.

 

that their persecution is somehow worse than everyone else's

I have not heard a single LGBT activist claim this. In fact, many of us consider the fight for LGBT rights as part of a broader struggle for human rights for all people. The fact is that we face many kinds of discrimination, though the situation has improved greatly in my lifetime. Whether our situation is better or worse than other disadvantaged groups is completely immaterial.

 

Instead they should emphasize the benefits of having LGBT people round, I think.

Actually, we do this. A large part of our campain is pointing out that we are productive members of society, more so than many people realize.

[scrappy]

No civil rights campaign has built itself around genetic or evolutionary arguments. Most people don't grok kin selection, but they do grok basic human rights.

I’d be interested in learning just how the black people’s struggle for civil rights is NOT a genetic issue. They have absolutely no choice in the racial traits they inherit; all of them came by way of genes. Blacks did not gain their civil rights by kin selection, of course, or any other evolutionary principle. They gained their rights purely on genetic grounds in the context of being human beings. Since LGBT people cannot claim genetic grounds for their predicament they need to resort to other principles to gain acceptance. Why not kin selection?

 

I consider black people to be equal to me in every way important to the laws we all must obey. And I consider LGBT people to be equal to me in every way important to the laws we all must obey. That is exactly why I have no objection whatsoever to LGBT people getting married, as long as everyone understands that marriage is a civil union between one man and one woman. It would be wrong and bigoted for me to say that LGBT people can’t get married in the proper context, just as it would be wrong and bigoted to say that interracial couples cannot get married in the same context.

 

The LGBT people are doing themselves harm by insisting that marriage is something other than the commonly understood definition stated above. I believe their insistence on this matter is counterproductive to them.

 

So, here’s an argument that might work: the LGBT people should be allowed to have civil unions that are not between one man and one woman, as the true definition of marriage requires. LGBT’s should be granted civil unions—not called “marriage” per se—on the social value of kin selection. (Two civilly united gay men, for example, might adopt an orphan that would otherwise go without a home. They could claim something like surrogate grandparenthood as a benefit to society, which is about the same thing as claiming the benefits of kin selection.)

[Sayonara]

I’d be interested in learning just how the black people’s struggle for civil rights is NOT a genetic issue. They have absolutely no choice in the racial traits they inherit; all of them came by way of genes.

Just to clarify as to why there may be confusion in this thread: race and ethnicity are not the same thing.

[Xittenn]

marriage is a civil union between one man and one woman

 

I just received my birth certificate in the mail................sex: female. I can marry yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[visceral]

I just received my birth certificate in the mail................sex: female. I can marry yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Yay!