Xittenn Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) May I interject myself to your scrutiny as a test subject or baseline to better accommodate this recurrent topic(I like being a Guinea Pig.) I am Male to Female transgendered or a gay man who likes dresses depending on who the viewer is:eyebrow:! That's twice now I've outed myself online and in this forum at that................ Anyway I grew up knowing what I was and I would say I was born that way. When speaking to my Doctors about my history I often reference a teddy bear my mother had given me as an example of my understanding of my predicament as a child. She had given me a Wishbear for Christmas. Wishbear is a Care Bear, he is blue and a boy. She also gave my brother a My Buddy. They always said to my brother how they where alike. I knew that this meant that I was like my Wishbear. Wishbear for any of you who weren't privileged enough to have watched Care Bears was very jealous of Love-A-Lot. Love-A-Lot bear was pink, pretty, a girl and very happy and everybody loved Love-A-Lot. Wishbear was very jealous of how everyone loved Love-A-Lot and that she was so happy, not because she was pink and pretty. The connection between me and Wishbear was at the age of three very offensive; I wanted to be pink and loved not blue and loved. I knew I was going to grow up to be a man and not a woman, this hurt, a lot. I knew early in life that I wanted to find a man to be with. The fact is as a child you see everyone else being a certain way and my FEELINGS where a certain way in correspondence. Choice often denotes logic not emotion. This is where I feel things become grey. I would have presented as female at a very young age except this was far from socially acceptable as a few have noted. This even in Canada a society which prides itself on acceptance and open mindedness. I still fear the opinions of others and the possibility of it causing me undue physical harm. I still question my CHOICE to present my inner emotions externally. I still am referred to as Sir despite my every effort to present female and despite the fact that I do look really good doing so(you can look good and still not 'pass' as a transgendered person.) Just this morning a clerk serving me coffee at Starbucks called me Sir. Her co-worker tapped her shoulder, gave her the 'that's not cool' look and said she would serve me. If we do serve as supporting members of society it's quite often(not always) as emotional punch dolls for those who are unhappy with themselves. I like men as a 'natural born woman' does. I share, as a generalized statement, much the same wants, needs and characteristics with woman or at the very least with the girls I call friends. I have always been this way it's a part of my being. If my choice where to change, it would be in the same way as a person who has never been allergic to nuts suddenly becomes allergic to nuts(pardon the..........nuts.) Why are LGBT persons so dissociated from society. It's not like where eating our babies. Why are there so many communities of LGBT people and not just LGBT persons strewn throughout society. There are individuals who become LGBT in life, for whatever reason they make the choice. There are however a good deal of us who just are this way because it is in our nature..............why is this still a question. Oh and I like to think of LGBTism as a good form of population control, we have functional roles.......yeah us! Edited January 25, 2009 by buttacup
visceral Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 Just being pedantic here, not intending to create any tangents, but most scientists agree that choice is practically nonexistent in making a person gay. Do you remember the day you chose to be heterosexual? I completely agree. Try becoming gay at will, and tell me if you can do it. I think the only time choice would enter the equation would be if you were innately bisexual, therefore you could, to some extent, suppress your gay side, in the same way that a heterosexual girl can be attracted to a guy but realize that he is a raging piss head, and thus consciously choose not to be with him. I don't feel that people should do that though. People should be themselves.
Xittenn Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 There are many who naturally don't like the taste of Olives but grow to like them in time with exposure. They eventually choose to eat olives and enjoy them very much. I know individuals who describe their LGBT experience in just this way. I've personally met a few fellows who where strictly heterosexual who had no problem entering into relations with me when I was still presenting as male. I keep in contact with a few of these indivuals and they still maintain heterosexual relations. There are always circumstances where the choice comes into play, despite a good many hetero males disgust at the thought of suddenly going gay.
visceral Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 Presenting as male isn't the same as BEING male. I could probably condition myself to not mind kissing another girl if I was really determined, but I certainly wouldn't enjoy it, and I wouldn't even think about having sex with another female. In any case even if you could do that at will, why the hell should you? Gays and bisexuals owe the rest of us NOTHING. It's their business what they do with a consenting partner in private.
ecoli Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 How is it incorrect? It *hypothesizes* that it's the same, because that is and always should be the default hypothesis when you see a trait manifested over much of the animal kingdom. A basic rule of reconstructing trait evolution is parsimony - postulate the fewest origins and losses that can account for the observed distribution of the trait. In this case, that would mean postulating that there is a single origin, probably quite far down the evolutionary tree. I should have explained myself better. I agree that parsimony should apply, but you can't always assume that it will. I'm not trying to claim that homosexuality arises in humans and animals by different processes, just that we shouldn't assume that its the same process. Certainly there are aspects of humans that other animals don't share (such as strong culture, language, cognizant functioning, unique genetic elements, etc) that could all play a role, in terms of evolution.
Xittenn Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 Presenting as male isn't the same as BEING male. Have you ever met a Transgendered Male..............you probably wouldn't know unless you checked their parts. I've met quite a few and they are just like any other boy, especially after hormone therapy. I wish it where half as easy in that respect to be MTF. Their surgery is much more expensive though and there is some serious scarring going on. They do look that much tougher afterwards and I've never met an FTM without a girlfriend or a wife. Presenting female is so an MTF thing, the boyz just are. FTM are generally pretty butch to begin with and nobody worries about a girl who dresses like a boy. A boy dresses like a girl and the world falls apart. I was just called a homo and a gay and asked if I was on Broke Back; they didn't like my hair. I've never seen the movie but I know that they sure as hell had no appearance similarites to me. Most gay men I know are more obtuse about being masculin than most hetero males. I've never in my life actually met a Big Gay Al or a twinky! There are obviously the transexuals and the transvestites but a good majority of them still sleep with women...................they don't know what their missing>......
Mr Skeptic Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 But let me ask you this one hypothetical question: What if nanotechnology and/or genetic engineering someday (probably sooner than later) discover what causes of sexuality and find ways to change it. You mean like this, only not with fruit flies? http://huehueteotl.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/homosexuality-is-biological-but-not-hard-wired/
scrappy Posted January 27, 2009 Author Posted January 27, 2009 You mean like this, only not with fruit flies?http://huehueteotl.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/homosexuality-is-biological-but-not-hard-wired/ Why not? From the article: Mate choice is an evolutionarily critical decision that requires the detection of multiple sex-specific signals followed by central integration of these signals to direct appropriate behavior. The mechanisms controlling mate choice remain poorly understood. Here, we show that the glial amino-acid transporter genderblind controls whether Drosophila melanogaster males will attempt to mate with other males. Genderblind (gb) mutant males showed no alteration in heterosexual courtship or copulation, but were attracted to normally unappealing male species-specific chemosensory cues. As a result, genderblind mutant males courted and attempted to copulate with other Drosophila males. This homosexual behavior could be induced within hours using inducible RNAi, suggesting that genderblind controls nervous system function rather than its development. Consistent with this, and indicating that glial genderblind regulates ambient extracellular glutamate to suppress glutamatergic synapse strength in vivo, homosexual behavior could be turned on and off by altering glutamatergic transmission pharmacologically and/or genetically… My prediction: Choice of sexuality (mate choice) will ultimately be seen to be as genetic in origin, and quite reversible as such. However, western humans are not very interested in kin selection; otherwise we’d be having bigger families and not kill off the women who disgrace the family name (like the Islamniacs do). We need more grannies around for better kin selection, instead of sending them off to squat and die uselessly in the old folks homes. Hey, maybe the absence of care-giving grannies turns on the genderblind gene and makes up for that loss in homosexuals.
Xittenn Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 You guys are terrible..................nobody tries to find the heterosexual gene. I'm going to find it and reverse it so I don't have to see this redicullus thread across multiple discussion forums. It's not as bad as the STD, Vaginal more healthy than Anal so it's more blah blah blah, but why is this honestly considered any better. What happens to breading when medical science moves us beyond the need? Will breaders suddenly become the topic of online debate? How 'bout them breaders there so primitive I wonder if we can reverse that gene(I know primitive was never insinuated nor was anyone saying we should reverse despite being touched on) ...........I'm going to start that thread, right now; no really! Hey I have a naturally low testosterone, it was right on the line of unhealthy. Do you suppose it was a subconscious supression? Maybe the same genetic hiccup that made me trans limited my testosterone production. Does anybody know why dogs lick each others bums? Ummmmmmmm let's find the damn gene....................no really! I'm not angry about this, I just don't understand. Find the serial killer gene for a change and discuss how it somehow came about as a natural benefit.
Mr Skeptic Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 You guys are terrible No, we are scientists. Scientists are always interested in finding what genes do what, and which genes are responsible for what. Go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ and you will see that scientists are exploring more genes than you knew you had. I don't see why it offends you that homosexuality may have a genetic basis -- if it is part of who you are, rather than a choice, people trying to condemn you morally or legally would look rather silly. Can it be immoral or illegal to be born different?
Xittenn Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) I am well aware of the national centre for biotechnology information. I never once said I was offended by my genetics. Quite the opposite I am thouroughly fascinated and despite my age am avidly pursuing an education in tissue and genetics engineering. I am a litle confused though as to why there is a search for the homo gene as it doesn't exist as I am sure you know. Homosexuality and Transexuality stems from a broad array of genetic causes and also a broad array of environmental causes. What upsets me is not the association of geneticly formed traits with a commonly formed characteristic but the search for a gene that forms homosexuality. I liked scrappys last post on genderblind the glial ammino transporter but don't see many posts of this sort and they are generally submitted as an end all be all. There is no one recipe! We should not be looking for homosexuality while mapping the genome, we should just be mapping the genome . Also if you're going to submit this as a scientific endeavor ghetto booties should be left out..................................It's not what you say it's how you say it! Not that I don't find the commentary down right amuzing..............arbosexuality what the................. Edited January 28, 2009 by buttacup
visceral Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Have you ever met a Transgendered Male..............you probably wouldn't know unless you checked their parts. I've met quite a few and they are just like any other boy, especially after hormone therapy. I wish it where half as easy in that respect to be MTF. Their surgery is much more expensive though and there is some serious scarring going on. They do look that much tougher afterwards and I've never met an FTM without a girlfriend or a wife. Presenting female is so an MTF thing, the boyz just are. FTM are generally pretty butch to begin with and nobody worries about a girl who dresses like a boy. A boy dresses like a girl and the world falls apart. I was just called a homo and a gay and asked if I was on Broke Back; they didn't like my hair. I've never seen the movie but I know that they sure as hell had no appearance similarites to me. Most gay men I know are more obtuse about being masculin than most hetero males. I've never in my life actually met a Big Gay Al or a twinky! There are obviously the transexuals and the transvestites but a good majority of them still sleep with women...................they don't know what their missing>...... If they look female though wouldn't it be reasonable for hetero guys to be attracted to them?
Xittenn Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Sure, but what effect would that have on wether or not they like girlz! You are talking about the T-Girlz right......................... I attract men I have mixed reactions about my passability. I do however appear to be in need of a good man to protect me. I know men like this and I use this to my advantage, despite being a mental and physical beast(of pure raw primal power(I don't look like a beast(stop looking at me like that))) Stupid monkey likes wood.......................that's been stuck in my head all day........
scrappy Posted January 29, 2009 Author Posted January 29, 2009 There's probably a certain amount of brain rot that goes along with homosexuality. I know that's true for heterosexuality.
visceral Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 Yup. Human beings suffer from brain rot regardless of sexual orientation! Buttercup, when you say T-girls, what do these people look like? Are they obviously physically female or androgynous looking?
Xittenn Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) All of the above......................as I mentioned Transitioned Females find it a lot harder to appear as their selected gender role as opposed to a Transitioned Male counterpart. They vary from hey you look-a-like-a-man to geeeee you're pretty. Money often plays a big role in this as there are many feminizing surgeries which only become an option to individuals who can afford them. So where a Transitioned Male can take hormones and look male the Transitioned Woman generally cannot. It's visa versa when it comes to bottom surgeries MTF is like $20 000 as opposed to FTM which is like $70 000. A transitioning woman however can spend $10 000 on implants, $10 000 to $20 000 on hair removal, $2 000 to $30 000 on facial feminization, and $2 000 to $8 000 on voice feminization. I myself have only done the bottom surgery and will be looking forward to getting implants. I can keep my voice in a feminine range but it took practice, I started out gender neutered. I have a pic u can see, I'm looking Androgynous. When I wear make-up and something more feminine I am generally complimented on my appearance. I wore an outfit to my works Christmas party, the exact same outfit and make up was in this months Lou Lou(Canada's shopping magazine.) All the girls took a moment at the party to come tell me how jelous they where of my hair, make up, boots etc. I showed a few of them the picture of the girl in Lou Lou and they all agreed it looked much better on me. Regardless it really varies for FTMs and not so much for MTFs. A note on the actual OP that I wanted to add. My family often saw me playing a supporting auntie role to my brothers families.................... they can think again! It was sort of suggested growing up that that's all I would do at best and that I should somehow accept this and get used to the idea of playing second fiddle. I personally don't want children but if I did I would seek to adopt. I do want to marry though, I hope to find a good man someday; by good I mean like chocolate! So if it was a nature or nurture driven environmental mechanism it forgot to account for personal choice. We also maintained good family relations where we all lived close together or even at times shared a house with Grandma and Tauntie(c'est francaise!) Edited February 1, 2009 by buttacup
Norman Albers Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 I have many friends in Takilma, 50 miles away. They are counterculture, seriously, and I love to party out there. Halloween is like nothing you'll ever see in town. One woman had tennis balls and whatever sewn to the outside of her pants, and a young man was dressed beautifully as a woman. This was upsetting and I loved it.
scrappy Posted February 1, 2009 Author Posted February 1, 2009 A note on the actual OP that I wanted to add. My family often saw me playing a supporting auntie role to my brothers families.................... they can think again! It was sort of suggested growing up that that's all I would do at best and that I should somehow accept this and get used to the idea of playing second fiddle. I personally don't want children but if I did I would seek to adopt. I do want to marry though, I hope to find a good man someday; by good I mean like chocolate! So if it was a nature or nurture driven environmental mechanism it forgot to account for personal choice. We also maintained good family relations where we all lived close together or even at times shared a house with Grandma and Tauntie(c'est francaise!) With very little to go on, I'll assume you fit into the broad category of LGBT. Are you saying then that personal choice was a significant factor in your sexuality? Your chosen sexuality? Or are you saying that nature/nurture didn't allow for such a choice?
Xittenn Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) Are you saying then that personal choice was a significant factor in your sexuality? Your chosen sexuality? Or are you saying that nature/nurture didn't allow for such a choice? No, I was saying that if kin selection was valid science or reason for my being it's functionality was lost along the way..............................Or lost to me, my family was all for it. I said ha your funny! I have said this and will say it again, I was born this way! There are individuals who choose to be who they are. There are others like myself who are born coupled to life through a capacitor instead of through a transformer......................I wish I could have just been born without a problem and if it's just some fixable psychological thing I would gladly accept the cure(kinda' late now!?!?!?!?) There are those of us who enjoy who they are, both born and chosen. It's 'caused me a lot of hurt and as far as I'm concerned I've missed out on a lot of good wholesome normal things life has to offer. I didn't date as a teenager. I didn't go to prom. I haven't had a significant other. I've never been in a serious enough a relationship to have said or been told "I love you!" Not to mention the problems it's 'caused with peers, not being allowed to join groups, missed employment ops. Ah, it's snowing....................Life has left me feeling kinda' dirty! Edited February 1, 2009 by buttacup
scrappy Posted February 1, 2009 Author Posted February 1, 2009 ...Life has left me feeling kinda' dirty! I understand. It can't be easy for you to fell "dirty" because of life's circumstances you didn't choose. But I'll ask you a hard question here: Could your perceived circumstances go well beyond your naturally appointed sexuality? I ask this because I, too, often feel unacceptable by certain groups of people, which makes me ask myself: What? Am I dirty or something? And, buttacup, bear in mind that I'm a life-long hetero with too much testosterone for my own good. What's my point? Anybody can feel socially "dirty" if the individual lets that get under his or hers skin. The trick is to choose not to feel dirty.
Xittenn Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 I know! I know a lot of people have a lot of problems affecting their lives. I know making the best of it is the way to go. I just meant that this is my thorn in my spine and as much as I like to make the best out of it it's often quite difficult.
iNow Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 I just meant that this is my thorn in my spine and as much as I like to make the best out of it it's often quite difficult. If I may offer a slight clarification... Your being has been a thorn in the spine of a society with outdated beliefs which are hurtful to others, a thorn to those who have some non-existent idealized version of humanity where homosexuality and gender issues are not allowed. Unfortunately, these beliefs are usually motivated by iron age fairy tales. The point is, though, that the thorn is in their spine, and the hurt you feel is from their reaction to you. You haven't done anything wrong. The hurt comes from the fact that others approach you as if you have. Hopefully the above clarifies the issue in the way I intended. Cheers.
Xittenn Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 Salut, c'est bon! I wish I was as humble with my ideas and ideologies...............I try to see both sides where the one you present is often ignored. I am however just as culpable of these idealizations fully knowing they are just that.
scrappy Posted February 1, 2009 Author Posted February 1, 2009 If I may offer a slight clarification... Your being has been a thorn in the spine of a society with outdated beliefs which are hurtful to others, a thorn to those who have some non-existent idealized version of humanity where homosexuality and gender issues are not allowed. Unfortunately, these beliefs are usually motivated by iron age fairy tales. The point is, though, that the thorn is in their spine, and the hurt you feel is from their reaction to you. You haven't done anything wrong. The hurt comes from the fact that others approach you as if you have. Hopefully the above clarifies the issue in the way I intended. Cheers. As soon as the LGBT people get beyond their persecution complex they will get everything they deserve. It does them no good to blame the bad old bigots and other stupid people for their social vicissitudes. Every group I know of has social vicissitudes. Women get abused and murdered just for being women. Same's true for children and dogs. The most abused and murdered people in America are black heterosexual men. It helps to remember this when complaining too much about one's own vicissiudes.
iNow Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 As soon as the LGBT people get beyond their persecution complex they will get everything they deserve. It does them no good to blame the bad old bigots and other stupid people for their social vicissitudes. Show me where exactly the LGBT people demonstrated any persecution complex in this thread? Those comments were mine, and I don't fit the criteria for that group.
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