Good Luck message for Mr Obama and the USA

[DrP]

Just heard a bit of his inauguration speech on way home in car. I got a bit emotional. In this time of turmoil, war and financial unrest - I sincerely hope he is as successful a president you have had. Good luck guys!

 

God Bless America! God Bless Barack Obama!

[Sisyphus]

Well, gosh. Thanks for the support. We watched it at work, and people were getting pretty emotional. These are adults, mostly engineers and lawyers, many of them immigrants. Even I choked up a little (not that it showed), and I'm a heartless bastard.

[iNow]

I, too, was sad to see GWBush leave office, and experienced that same swell of emotion.

[ecoli]

I was listening to the radio. I'm surprised at how hawkish he sounded. Other than that his speech basically boiled down to increasing the size of government in response to the crises so I obviously wasn't impressed by that bit.

The bits about the founding fathers and patriotism where nice, but pretty meaningless.

 

I still can't believe we spent $150 million on this dog and pony show (mostly from fed and DC/Maryland/Virginia gov't.) during a time of economic recession. Obama's getting heralded in on deficit spending and I don't see that changing throughout the course of his presidency. It's going to be an interesting 4 years.

[iNow]

Funny, I took greater offense to how we let so many people speak for 20 minutes to their imaginary friends than I did to the spending. You know damn well that people would have donated if they were asked... just look at how very many showed up (although, you probably couldn't see just how impressive the crowd size was if you only listened on radio), but this money could have easily been raised, so I find your ideologically founded negativity rather distasteful, myself (not that you should care... I'm just sayin'... can we get past the inauguration before we go into attack mode?). Seriously... "Dog and pony show?" Did you get that straight from Limbaugh, or have you been frequenting other neocon sites and come here to parrot what you've read?

[ecoli]

Funny, I took greater offense to how we let so many people speak for 20 minutes to their imaginary friends than I did to the spending.

I agree with that too, hence "dog and pony" show.

 

You know damn well that people would have donated if they were asked... just look at how very many showed up (although, you probably couldn't see just how impressive the crowd size was if you only listened on radio), but this money could have easily been raised, so I find your ideologically founded negativity rather distasteful, myself (not that you should care... I'm just sayin'... can we get past the inauguration before we go into attack mode?).

There were a lot of private donations, but ~100 mill was still footed by various governments.

 

Seriously... "Dog and pony show?" Did you get that straight from Limbaugh, or have you been frequenting other neocon sites and come here to parrot what you've read?

I'm confused... because I think this type of government spending is wasteful you're labeling me a neocon and not being able to draw that conclusion for myself?

 

Care to retract that iNow? because I know such ridiculous accusations are beneath you.

[iNow]

I agree spending should be minimized. I took issue with the tone of the attack, as it did remind me of the partisan hackery I see on neocon sites. If that's not the case here, then I do certainly apologize. It would certainly help to see the spending number ($100M) in context of past inauguration events and measure it against what other administrations have spent (with dollars adjusted for inflation) before using it to slam the celebration which took place today.

 

Either way, this thread was clearly opened to wish everyone well... good luck... in the spirit of friendship and mutual advancement, so if we're going to battle over "how much is too much" for a party of this magnitude, then I seriously suggest another thread is warranted to do so.

 

 

On that note, I wish the best of luck to Obama and his administration, and I hope to see the population of the world as a whole work together, forming a unified front toward solving our most pressing problems and in realizing our collective opportunities.

[ecoli]

I agree spending should be minimized. I took issue with the tone of the attack, as it did remind me of the partisan hackery I see on neocon sites. If that's not the case here, then I do certainly apologize.

no problem. I assure you that partisan hackery is not one of my many flaws.

 

It would certainly help to see the spending number ($100M) in context of past inauguration events and measure it against what other administrations have spent (with dollars adjusted for inflation) before using it to slam the celebration which took place today.

ABC was reporting $170 million, fyi.

Also reported by ABC:

Bush in 2005: $42.3 mill (all private funds so may not include security costs)

Clinton in '93 - $33 mill (with some left over)

 

Either way, this thread was clearly opened to wish everyone well... good luck... in the spirit of friendship and mutual advancement, so if we're going to battle over "how much is too much" for a party of this magnitude, then I seriously suggest another thread is warranted to do so.

apologies. my point in mentioning costs is that Obama's speech was talking about sacrifice during times of economic hardship. If his administration can't even reign in spending for its own inauguration I think it sets a bad precedence. Esp. considering his speech also talked a lot about changing the nature of government (for health care, regulations, etc.) all of these things are going to cost big time. There is little doubt that Obama's administration is going to justify more deficit spending in the name of economic health and the public good.

 

While I'm pleased that Americans are able to come together and have hope during hard times, however, I doubt the ability of the government spending to provide for mutual advancement (rather, the advancement of special interests).

 

I don't believe that international populations are able to work efficiently through government bodies to solve our most pressing problems and that collective opportunities are best served by protecting the individual's civil and economic freedoms.

 

If Obama's administration wants to solve these problems (and I believe it does) its going to take a lot more than deficit government spending and a few new regulatory bodies.

 

Good luck everyone.

[Sisyphus]

A bit delayed, but here is the text of the inauguration address, for easy reference:

 

My fellow citizens:

 

I stand here today humbled by the task before us' date=' grateful for the trust you have bestowed, mindful of the sacrifices borne by our ancestors. I thank President Bush for his service to our nation, as well as the generosity and cooperation he has shown throughout this transition.

 

Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath. The words have been spoken during rising tides of prosperity and the still waters of peace. Yet, every so often the oath is taken amidst gathering clouds and raging storms. At these moments, America has carried on not simply because of the skill or vision of those in high office, but because we the people have remained faithful to the ideals of our forebears, and true to our founding documents.

 

So it has been. So it must be with this generation of Americans.

 

That we are in the midst of crisis is now well understood. Our nation is at war, against a far-reaching network of violence and hatred. Our economy is badly weakened, a consequence of greed and irresponsibility on the part of some, but also our collective failure to make hard choices and prepare the nation for a new age. Homes have been lost; jobs shed; businesses shuttered. Our health care is too costly; our schools fail too many; and each day brings further evidence that the ways we use energy strengthen our adversaries and threaten our planet.

 

These are the indicators of crisis, subject to data and statistics. Less measurable but no less profound is a sapping of confidence across our land — a nagging fear that America's decline is inevitable, and that the next generation must lower its sights.

 

Today I say to you that the challenges we face are real. They are serious and they are many. They will not be met easily or in a short span of time. But know this, America — they will be met.

 

On this day, we gather because we have chosen hope over fear, unity of purpose over conflict and discord.

 

On this day, we come to proclaim an end to the petty grievances and false promises, the recriminations and worn out dogmas, that for far too long have strangled our politics.

 

We remain a young nation, but in the words of Scripture, the time has come to set aside childish things. The time has come to reaffirm our enduring spirit; to choose our better history; to carry forward that precious gift, that noble idea, passed on from generation to generation: the God-given promise that all are equal, all are free and all deserve a chance to pursue their full measure of happiness.

 

In reaffirming the greatness of our nation, we understand that greatness is never a given. It must be earned. Our journey has never been one of shortcuts or settling for less. It has not been the path for the faint-hearted — for those who prefer leisure over work, or seek only the pleasures of riches and fame. Rather, it has been the risk-takers, the doers, the makers of things — some celebrated but more often men and women obscure in their labor, who have carried us up the long, rugged path towards prosperity and freedom.

 

For us, they packed up their few worldly possessions and traveled across oceans in search of a new life.

 

For us, they toiled in sweatshops and settled the West; endured the lash of the whip and plowed the hard earth.

 

For us, they fought and died, in places like Concord and Gettysburg; Normandy and Khe Sahn.

 

Time and again these men and women struggled and sacrificed and worked till their hands were raw so that we might live a better life. They saw America as bigger than the sum of our individual ambitions; greater than all the differences of birth or wealth or faction.

 

This is the journey we continue today. We remain the most prosperous, powerful nation on Earth. Our workers are no less productive than when this crisis began. Our minds are no less inventive, our goods and services no less needed than they were last week or last month or last year. Our capacity remains undiminished. But our time of standing pat, of protecting narrow interests and putting off unpleasant decisions — that time has surely passed. Starting today, we must pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and begin again the work of remaking America.

 

For everywhere we look, there is work to be done. The state of the economy calls for action, bold and swift, and we will act — not only to create new jobs, but to lay a new foundation for growth. We will build the roads and bridges, the electric grids and digital lines that feed our commerce and bind us together. We will restore science to its rightful place, and wield technology's wonders to raise health care's quality and lower its cost. We will harness the sun and the winds and the soil to fuel our cars and run our factories. And we will transform our schools and colleges and universities to meet the demands of a new age. All this we can do. All this we will do.

 

Now, there are some who question the scale of our ambitions — who suggest that our system cannot tolerate too many big plans. Their memories are short. For they have forgotten what this country has already done; what free men and women can achieve when imagination is joined to common purpose, and necessity to courage.

 

What the cynics fail to understand is that the ground has shifted beneath them — that the stale political arguments that have consumed us for so long no longer apply. The question we ask today is not whether our government is too big or too small, but whether it works — whether it helps families find jobs at a decent wage, care they can afford, a retirement that is dignified. Where the answer is yes, we intend to move forward. Where the answer is no, programs will end. Those of us who manage the public's dollars will be held to account — to spend wisely, reform bad habits, and do our business in the light of day — because only then can we restore the vital trust between a people and their government.

 

Nor is the question before us whether the market is a force for good or ill. Its power to generate wealth and expand freedom is unmatched, but this crisis has reminded us that without a watchful eye, the market can spin out of control — and that a nation cannot prosper long when it favors only the prosperous. The success of our economy has always depended not just on the size of our gross domestic product, but on the reach of our prosperity; on our ability to extend opportunity to every willing heart — not out of charity, but because it is the surest route to our common good.

 

As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals. Our founding fathers ... our found fathers, faced with perils we can scarcely imagine, drafted a charter to assure the rule of law and the rights of man, a charter expanded by the blood of generations. Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. And so to all the other peoples and governments who are watching today, from the grandest capitals to the small village where my father was born: know that America is a friend of each nation and every man, woman, and child who seeks a future of peace and dignity, and that we are ready to lead once more.

 

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

 

We are the keepers of this legacy. Guided by these principles once more, we can meet those new threats that demand even greater effort — even greater cooperation and understanding between nations. We will begin to responsibly leave Iraq to its people, and forge a hard-earned peace in Afghanistan. With old friends and former foes, we will work tirelessly to lessen the nuclear threat, and roll back the specter of a warming planet. We will not apologize for our way of life, nor will we waver in its defense, and for those who seek to advance their aims by inducing terror and slaughtering innocents, we say to you now that our spirit is stronger and cannot be broken; you cannot outlast us, and we will defeat you.

 

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus — and non-believers. We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth; and because we have tasted the bitter swill of civil war and segregation, and emerged from that dark chapter stronger and more united, we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself; and that America must play its role in ushering in a new era of peace.

 

To the Muslim world, we seek a new way forward, based on mutual interest and mutual respect. To those leaders around the globe who seek to sow conflict, or blame their society's ills on the West — know that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy. To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history; but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist.

 

To the people of poor nations, we pledge to work alongside you to make your farms flourish and let clean waters flow; to nourish starved bodies and feed hungry minds. And to those nations like ours that enjoy relative plenty, we say we can no longer afford indifference to the suffering outside our borders; nor can we consume the world's resources without regard to effect. For the world has changed, and we must change with it.

 

As we consider the road that unfolds before us, we remember with humble gratitude those brave Americans who, at this very hour, patrol far-off deserts and distant mountains. They have something to tell us, just as the fallen heroes who lie in Arlington whisper through the ages. We honor them not only because they are guardians of our liberty, but because they embody the spirit of service; a willingness to find meaning in something greater than themselves. And yet, at this moment — a moment that will define a generation — it is precisely this spirit that must inhabit us all.

 

For as much as government can do and must do, it is ultimately the faith and determination of the American people upon which this nation relies. It is the kindness to take in a stranger when the levees break, the selflessness of workers who would rather cut their hours than see a friend lose their job which sees us through our darkest hours. It is the firefighter's courage to storm a stairway filled with smoke, but also a parent's willingness to nurture a child, that finally decides our fate.

 

Our challenges may be new. The instruments with which we meet them may be new. But those values upon which our success depends — hard work and honesty, courage and fair play, tolerance and curiosity, loyalty and patriotism — these things are old. These things are true. They have been the quiet force of progress throughout our history. What is demanded then is a return to these truths. What is required of us now is a new era of responsibility — a recognition, on the part of every American, that we have duties to ourselves, our nation, and the world, duties that we do not grudgingly accept but rather seize gladly, firm in the knowledge that there is nothing so satisfying to the spirit, so defining of our character, than giving our all to a difficult task.

 

This is the price and the promise of citizenship.

 

This is the source of our confidence — the knowledge that God calls on us to shape an uncertain destiny.

 

This is the meaning of our liberty and our creed — why men and women and children of every race and every faith can join in celebration across this magnificent Mall, and why a man whose father less than sixty years ago might not have been served at a local restaurant can now stand before you to take a most sacred oath.

 

So let us mark this day with remembrance, of who we are and how far we have traveled. In the year of America's birth, in the coldest of months, a small band of patriots huddled by dying campfires on the shores of an icy river. The capital was abandoned. The enemy was advancing. The snow was stained with blood. At a moment when the outcome of our revolution was most in doubt, the father of our nation ordered these words be read to the people:

 

"Let it be told to the future world ... that in the depth of winter, when nothing but hope and virtue could survive...that the city and the country, alarmed at one common danger, came forth to meet (it)."

 

America, in the face of our common dangers, in this winter of our hardship, let us remember these timeless words. With hope and virtue, let us brave once more the icy currents, and endure what storms may come. Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.

 

Thank you. God bless you. And God bless the United States of America.

[/quote']

[SH3RL0CK]

I'm not saying people complaining about cost are wrong to do so. But to keep partisan bickering out of the discussion, some historical perspective is a good thing. If I recall correctly, didn't people complain about the excessive pending Reagan did during his inaugeration? I thought it was much, much more than Carter (or Ford for that matter) spent (or maybe I am wrong on this point).

[ecoli]

I'm not saying people complaining about cost are wrong to do so. But to keep partisan bickering out of the discussion, some historical perspective is a good thing. If I recall correctly, didn't people complain about the excessive pending Reagan did during his inaugeration? I thought it was much, much more than Carter (or Ford for that matter) spent (or maybe I am wrong on this point).

I still don't see how complaining about government spending is a partisan issue, every administration in modern times has increased deficit spending from the previous one regardless of political party.

[Pangloss]

I thought that the highlight of the speech was his call for unity. He has an amazing talent for making that call without denigrating those he's accusing. It seems to be natural and heartfelt.

 

Actually the shining moment of the day for me was Rev. Lowery, tired and cold and clearly not altogether as able as he once was, but still managing to summon the spirit of the civil rights movement. He used his famous magical line, and for a brief moment he was his old self again.

 

Lord, in the memory of all the saints who from their labors rest, and in the joy of a new beginning, we ask you to help us work for that day when black will not be asked to get in back, when brown can stick around, when yellow will be mellow, when the red man can get ahead, man; and when white will embrace what is right. That all those who do justice and love mercy say Amen. Say Amen

 

And two million people said "Amen!" What a moment.

[Saryctos]

I think that in my own personal conversation I downplay the fact that Obama is black as an unconscious reaction to the massive amounts of press almost trying to shove it at me with an "in your face you white bastards!" tone. Truth be told, it is an historic occasion, Americans do love to party and celebrate 1sts, so I can understand the cost.

I hope Obama is not as bad a president as I imagine he would be, I can see promise in the way he thinks, not necessarily in his ideologies, but in the fact that he presents an inquisitive persona. I am pleasantly awaiting changes, not in the gov't, but in the people's state of mind. Everyone seems to be very enthusiastic about change, enthralled with wanting to fix things they see as broken, and that for the most part is more important than if Obama is even capable of it. For the moment, I like the guy...but we'll see how that goes when he starts spending my money

 

I look forward to post-Bush television and political commentary aswell, and I wonder how long it will take before his influence fades from the spotlight.

[DrP]

Lord, in the memory of all the saints who from their labors rest, and in the joy of a new beginning, we ask you to help us work for that day when black will not be asked to get in back, when brown can stick around, when yellow will be mellow, when the red man can get ahead, man; and when white will embrace what is right. That all those who do justice and love mercy say Amen. Say Amen

 

 

And two million people said "Amen!" What a moment.

 

 

YEA!! Do I hear an AMEN!??

 

(Even if your not religious - you've got to agree) Come on - lets make it happen!.

 

 

P - feeling the luv from the UK!

[Pangloss]

Did you all catch this bit from the speech?

 

We will build the roads and bridges, the electric grids and digital lines that feed our commerce and bind us together. We will restore science to its rightful place[/b'], and wield technology's wonders to raise health care's quality and lower its cost. We will harness the sun and the winds and the soil to fuel our cars and run our factories. And we will transform our schools and colleges and universities to meet the demands of a new age. All this we can do. All this we will do.

[ParanoiA]

my point in mentioning costs is that Obama's speech was talking about sacrifice during times of economic hardship. If his administration can't even reign in spending for its own inauguration I think it sets a bad precedence. Esp. considering his speech also talked a lot about changing the nature of government (for health care, regulations, etc.) all of these things are going to cost big time. There is little doubt that Obama's administration is going to justify more deficit spending in the name of economic health and the public good.

 

You are not alone my friend. On the one hand you don't want to ruin the fun for everyone by pointing it out, but on the other hand don't you have a moral imperative to point out a startling piece of hypocritical propaganda? Actions speak louder than words and while I wish our new president well, I'm not impressed with this celebratory indulgence.

 

Oh, and hell of a speech he gave. Might be nice having an orator in the presidency for a while.

[iNow]

Wouldn't your concern about spending be better directed to Diane Feinstein since she's the one who was in charge of setting up the inauguration and putting everything in place?

 

 

Also, they're running an hour late. This is just unacceptable. We have real deadlines to meet and lot to do, and it sets a really bad precendent for this administration that they are alrady off schedule on the very first day.

 

Oh yeah, and a parade? They're shutting down roads for this? All of these people not even going to work today? How much is THAT hurting our GDP? It looks like all this president wants to do is celebrate his power instead of helping productivity and jobs. Seems his talk about jobs during the campaign was all empty rhetoric, as if he truly meant what he said he'd have never have let so many people take today off to be there with him in DC.

 

And all that money on security. Why didn't he just telephone in? I mean, we DO have an internet. Did he really have to do this all in person where people needed to put their lives at risk to protect him?

 

And, what about...

[ParanoiA]

That's true, it sure would have been a consistent follow through on his message of "change" to demand a modest crowd for the inauguration, decline the festivities and get to work since there's so much to do.

 

But hey, why change?

[DJBruce]

Although I do not agree with everything said in the speech and am not a fan of the huge amount of money being spent on the celebration to day, I do hope that President Obama does a great job because I believe that we are facing a pivotal time in America's history. Wonderful speech though very charismatic and moving.

 

Did anyone else see Chief Justice Roberts stumble over the oath, that just made me laugh.

[Sisyphus]

I'm just curious what all that money was spent on. How much did John Williams get for ripping off Joseph Brackett?

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

Did anyone else see Chief Justice Roberts stumble over the oath, that just made me laugh.

 

From the NY Times: "For a couple of smooth-talking constitutional experts, Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and President-elect Barack Obama sure had a hard time getting through the constitutional oath of office."

 

I liked that Michelle was laughing at them. Good for her.

[SH3RL0CK]

I still don't see how complaining about government spending is a partisan issue, every administration in modern times has increased deficit spending from the previous one regardless of political party.

 

I'm guessing the inaugeration costs will be a very small part of the deficit for this year. But I can see it being considered unnecessary.

 

I agree it is not a partisan issue. And its also a different set of concerns when the inaugeration is funded by private interests as opposed to government entities paying. But I fully expect that someone will try to make it so, if they haven't already.

Edited January 20, 2009 by SH3RL0CK
to clarify

[padren]

In defense of the pomp, circumstance and the money that it takes... while I agree it's rather frivolous I think the intention is rally the mood of the nation. I suppose that could be called "propaganda" but it could also be called "restoring confidence" at the same time.

 

While I think we all here put a lot more weight on what's said than how it's packaged up, it's worth noting the impact it probably had on a lot of people's state of mind.

 

It'll take more than a lot of pomp and shouting "America's Back On Top!" to get there, but the tone has to be set for people to start going that way. If that wasn't a factor, your local college football team would do far better to spend all the money on equipment and drop the cheerleaders and mascot and all that right away.

 

 

So, for the inauguration, I'll give this a pass myself, and reserve the criticisms for how the grunt work goes.

 

 

 

As for the speech itself:

 

I found it great. When I hear a great speech, I usually find it both moving and at the same time makes me very uneasy, in that "I don't want to get burned again" sorta way.

 

When my family calls and happens to ask "Why do you still live in that country again, why was it that you are getting citizenship?" as cheesy as it sounds I honestly feel it's moments like this.

[john5746]

Lord, in the memory of all the saints who from their labors rest, and in the joy of a new beginning, we ask you to help us work for that day when black will not be asked to get in back, when brown can stick around, when yellow will be mellow, when the red man can get ahead, man; and when white will embrace what is right. That all those who do justice and love mercy say Amen. Say Amen

 

I actually didn't like this too much. It sounds like he's scapegoating asians and whites to me. I understand the 3rd grade attempt at rhyming, but still...

[padren]

I actually didn't like this too much. It sounds like he's scapegoating asians and whites to me. I understand the 3rd grade attempt at rhyming, but still...

 

I didn't catch anything before Obama began his speech, but when I read that part here, I could help hearing "and when the cat can be wear'n that hat" pop into my head

[Pangloss]

I actually didn't like this too much. It sounds like he's scapegoating asians and whites to me. I understand the 3rd grade attempt at rhyming, but still...

 

Understandable, but I wouldn't read too much into it. It was really intended as an "inside message", and a kind of "high-five", to African Americans who lived through the civil rights movement. Don't quote me on this and I'm too tired to dig up my copy of "Eyes on the Prize" at the moment, but I believe he originally said it at Martin Luther King's funeral. It goes way back to that era, at least.

 

It's important to understand that Joseph Lowery is a living icon -- he is the civil rights movement. For African Americans, having him at the inauguration was akin to having Lincoln himself there. He's the man who made Rosa Parks' effort mean something. The founder of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. The man who lead the march from Selma to Montgomery. He symbolizes the very movement itself.

 

The fact that he's not as well known to white people is actually a strong statement about the man's character. Dr. Lowery IS one of those black leaders that equates poverty to inequality, but he was never the kind to blame all white people for black people's problems, and has many supporters amongst whites and Republicans. The non-violent message was as much Rev. Lowery's as it was Dr. King's. He was a frequent critic of the Bush administration, but that's his right and I never took it to be closed-mindedly partisan in nature, and it was never personal (he and Bush got along).

 

He got into some trouble after Coretta King died when he said something like "billions more for the war but no more for the poor", but again, that's just how the man is -- he doesn't use that like you may recall seeing Jeremiah Wright in that famous video -- Rev. Lowery's about as opposite of Jeremiah Wright as can be. In fact if you grew up in Atlanta in the 1970s like I did, you really got used to hearing stuff like that all the time, and if you ignore the politics of it (or just accept it, as I did), it's incredibly lyrical and moving. Many of the great civil rights leaders (including MLK) had that gift. (They had a name for it, but it too eludes me at the moment.)

 

At any rate, the man is 87 years old and I think he's entitled to his foibles.

Edited January 21, 2009 by Pangloss