minus_Ph Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 I might be missing something fundamental here... If I react iron hydroxide with Fluoroantimonic Acid would I get a salt? I mean after the fireball... If so would the salt be stable outside of a solvated system? Minus
hermanntrude Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 acid plus base always results in a salt as far as i know. The trouble with fluoroantimonic acid is that it reacts with virtually everything. I suspect anything you made would also get eaten along with the solvent and the container.
minus_Ph Posted January 25, 2009 Author Posted January 25, 2009 I was thinking to place in a wide mouth teflon jar three small teflon beakers... One holds Antimony Pentafluoride, another Iron Hydroxide, the last water. The vapor pressure of the former should cause a slow reaction with the water producing HF. The HF and the Antimony Pentafluoride in vapor form react as fluorantimonic acid on the surface Iron Hydroxide yielding our supposed salt and additional water. The water produced will tend to destroy the acid. As such I was thinking to start with another Iron salt. Thanks for your help minus
hermanntrude Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 holy crap you're not considering USING this stuff are you? Please dont. Even if you think you know what you're doing. Fluoroantimonic acids is pretty much the strongest acid known to man. leave it be.
minus_Ph Posted January 25, 2009 Author Posted January 25, 2009 If I do perform this It will be done out of doors far distant from any living being. The weather well understood. I Would Be a great distance away when the solid (frozen) components thaw out and begin their irreversible path. As the vapor pressure of the Antimony Petafluoride will gradually rise... If such a salt existed wouldn't I be able to look it up somewhere, determine a few of it's properties. That would save me quite an expense and perhaps direct me in a more sensible direction. Thanks, minus
hermanntrude Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 i think you'd just end up with fluoride salts.
minus_Ph Posted January 25, 2009 Author Posted January 25, 2009 Yeah that makes sense... It is hard to imagine Fluoroantimonic salts, at least ones of (II) or (III) configuration. So this brings us full circle... Are there any Fluoroantimonic salts? Is there a place to look such things up at? ~minus
hermanntrude Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 google's always the best place to start. The thing is that "fluoroantimonic acid" is already a salt... that's why it's so strong an acid because the protons are as bare as they can be. basically it's the closest thing you can egt to a compounds which contains the H+ ion which is so often pretended to exist when it doesnt
UC Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) I'd suspect that there are indeed fluoroantimonic salts. Just like there are hexafluorophosphate salts and tetrafluoroborate salts. I'd think the way to go is not to have any hydroxide anywhere near the mix since that'll give water and immediate hydrolysis to clouds of HF. Stoichiometric Anhydrous iron fluoride and antimony pentafluoride in liquid anhydrous HF followed by slow warming under dry argon to remove the HF solvent is probably the only way to do this. X-ray crystallography would be what you'd use to try to show the octahedral SbF6- within the crystal lattice, confirming it as a hexafluoroantimonate salt. You'd need either teflon or copper vessels as glass would probably react rapidly. I believe copper passivates readily with HF around and is used for F2 generation by electrolysis. Edited January 25, 2009 by UC
minus_Ph Posted January 25, 2009 Author Posted January 25, 2009 Wow that just exceeded my budget. Liquid HF... now that sounds to me more scary then the Fluoroantimonic Acid... That at least I had hoped to do at atmospheric pressure (very slightly positive) in a non sealed (covered) container. I was hoping to produce the HF by the reaction of Antimony Pentafluoride with water in situ as it were in very minute amounts. Thus I could control the rate of the whole shebang with the vapor pressure of the Antimony Pentafluoride by its temperature. All of the heat liberated by the chemical reactions being Isothermal to the Antimony Pentafluoride. The back fill of Argon is a great idea and an obvious oversight on my part. Thanks, ~minus
hermanntrude Posted January 25, 2009 Posted January 25, 2009 once again, minus, please don't try this. it's just not safe. any slight impurity and this stuff will explode, showering you with vicious acids and fumes
minus_Ph Posted January 26, 2009 Author Posted January 26, 2009 once again, minus, please don't try this. it's just not safe. any slight impurity and this stuff will explode, showering you with vicious acids and fumes 1) I would be about a mile away when the Antimony Pentafluoride melts. 2) I cannot afford to do this, even the raw materials far exceed my limited research budget. 3) If I do find a way to procure the stuff, all of the stuff (win the lotto) I really do not like HF... the stuff scares me... I've used it but I don't like it. I think I will stick with Nitrogen Monoxide and Carbon Monoxide and make my Iron Nitrosyl Carbonyl and the like. Just want to keep the mind pushing the envelope. What I really want to know is: what would be the properties of Iron Fluoroantimonide, would it be Iron (II) or Iron (III) would it be ferromagnetic and similar questions. I would be happy if I could get Iron(???) (Halogen of choice) antimonide. Thanks for your concern. ~minus
hermanntrude Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 i really think you'd be unlikely to isolate any iron fluoroanyimonides. The reaction is highly exothermic and there are fluoride ions around, which are almost certainly going to give you fluoride salts instead
minus_Ph Posted January 26, 2009 Author Posted January 26, 2009 Oh I forgot to mention I am only reacting 200uL of stuff. So the big explosion might be able to tip my 400mL Teflon beaker over. And the exothermic part I am reacting at the rate of evaporation of the Antimony PentaFluoride which is thawing out slowly. I plan on the whole reaction of the 200uL taking at least a day. Endothermic yes but only a temp rise of a few deg. ~minus
hermanntrude Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 please dont write "u" instead of micro. it drives me crazy. it's a mu. you can get it from the character map or by typing "alt+0181". I still think it's very irresponsible to go leaving such dangerous chemicals unattended in the open. I know it's only small quantities but it could hurt someone very badly or or it could be environmentally damaging.
John Cuthber Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 The heat of neutralisation in water is the the same for all acids so you could do this reaction in solution. Sb(V) is fairly oxidising so I suspect the product would be Fe(III) hexafluoroantimonate, even if you started with Fe(OH)2. If someone said "What happens if I add dilute perchloric acid to Fe(OH)3 ?" would anyone be predicting anything exciting?
UC Posted January 27, 2009 Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) You're not going to be able to do this in water. Note that SbF5 hydrolyzes readily giving some godforsaken mix of antimony(V)fluoride/hydroxide/oxide and HF. The fluorine on the iron compound (FeF3?) is going to be your lewis base. Perhaps the reaction would proceed more easily using a crappier lewis acid than FeF3. Even something like LiSbF6 would be interesting, although it would lack the potential colors of a transition metal compound. I wonder of SbF5 will react with SF6....[sF5][sbF6] anyone? I suspect it would be polymeric though. Edited January 27, 2009 by UC
nitric Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 also, are you doing this at home or in a highly controled inveroment, if your doing the former then one, you cant get any of this because you cant get the fluoroantinomates anywhere, wont be able to make oleum, where the heck will you get complete teflon/copper aperati. in both a controled inviroment and home i would not recomend it
hermanntrude Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 you've got to know, if nitric says he doesn't recommend it, it's got to be unsafe. 1
rihan sayyad Posted December 4, 2015 Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) oh that is a deadly reaction it must be done with a great safety ,i don't think that anyone has done it or uploaded any article about it,we can just predict the reaction with our experience to chemistry and knowledge about theoretical chemistry .just forget that u will ever get 100% right answer of the 100% absurd question ?.''''''''''''''']]\\//. Edited December 4, 2015 by rihan sayyad
TheGeckomancer Posted December 4, 2015 Posted December 4, 2015 My knowledge of chemistry is far below everyone in this conversation. But I know about fluoroantimonic acids...... This is a REALLY bad idea. I do know there is almost no actual lab research even being done with this stuff because it's just too unsafe.
Strange Posted December 4, 2015 Posted December 4, 2015 Derek Lowe's "Things I won't Work With" blog is always good for a laugh in the dangerous chemicals department: http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/category/things-i-wont-work-with
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