scrappy Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Immorality is the most desired commodity in the world. Religions mine it, process it, and sell it to the masses, gaining both huge profits and preponderant power in world affairs. The Christian religion, for example, promises an afterlife in heaven with Jesus and his celebrated Father. Islam promises about the same thing: Mohammed will be up there, too, along and a bunch of dancing virgins. But that kind of immortality is not for everyone. What constitutes immortality? How would you know if you’re immortal or not. Woody Allen said once that immortality is a hard sell because it will take forever to prove its worth. But wait. Is flesh and blood immortality really what we’re after? Or is it another kind? It’s true that some of us are more immortal than others, if we count durability of the human memory as a measure of immortality. I would venture say that as long as human memory exists people like Socrates and Hitler will live immortally, at least in terms of being remembered. John Updike died yesterday, after achieving literary immortality with his Rabbit novels. If that kind of immortality is a measure of anything then I’m absolutely sure that Updike got more of it than I ever will. As long as we remain alive as biological creatures, believing that immortality must be a biological thing, we are bound to be disappointed. The same thing can be said about spiritual immortality: it’s taking more and more clapping to keep Tinker Bell alive, and someday we’ll run out of claps. The answer to immortality in the twenty-first century is not going to be found in the biological sciences or chemistry, because it will not be an extension of molecular biology. It will be an extension of Facebook or YouTube—computerized downloads of digital information about humans and life on this planet. And the uploading has already. Today, for all practical purposes, you are immortal if you are Googleable. As long as humans and computers are around, which will be forever in human terms, your cyber immortality is assured. In the long term it’s the only immortality that will ever have any real meaning. This is why we need to write a User’s Manual for immortality. So, I’m out fishing for chapter titles. Any suggestions?
Sisyphus Posted January 28, 2009 Posted January 28, 2009 Everyone is already immortal in the sense that our existence will leave echoes of causality rippling across the universe possibly forever, and at least until this universe ends. It's not very searchable, though...
padren Posted February 2, 2009 Posted February 2, 2009 I thought this was going towards a human version of the Halting Problem for a minute - but I get what you are saying. Personally, I would define Immortality as an unending continuity of consciousness, which is not likely to happen. However, your definition is a different kind of immortality, but pretty much involves the "echos" of our impact, much the way Sisyphus said. But, if we go with that, I'll ask another question: Why is it important that "I" be googleable when the results of my actions could be traced to me or not, but have a far more reaching impact on the world? Is a person really more "Immortal" for having scratched "Joe Smith was here" on a wall somewhere, or an anonymous teacher that just happened to have a huge impact on the philisophical development a future world leader? Personally I think the latter has more meaning.
cameron marical Posted February 2, 2009 Posted February 2, 2009 ya, im gonna have to agree with padren on that i consider immortality as an unending continuity of consciousness. but i do understand the idea of what your saying. but to tell you the truth, id prefer some form of immortality as something way cooler, like us downloading our conscioussness's into robots wich then become our bodys. or becoming a vampire.
The_Pc Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 Wouldn't downloading the consciousness imply making a copy, since they are different types of support. Copying implies the original is discarded and the copy becomes a new consciousness. So it could be immortal but would be something other than the person it was copied from. Like making an instant twin...
scrappy Posted February 8, 2009 Author Posted February 8, 2009 Wouldn't downloading the consciousness imply making a copy, since they are different types of support. Copying implies the original is discarded and the copy becomes a new consciousness. So it could be immortal but would be something other than the person it was copied from. Like making an instant twin... More like making a virtual you. It would be a digitized you without all the biological extras, except that viruses will still be hanging around to make trouble. Nevertheless, you, or the closest thing to it, will be preserved and interactive. If some one wanted to ask the virtual you a question about your biological life, that person would get a virtual response resembling what you would have said if you were alive. And the virtual person on the screen would look exactly like you. It goes on from there...
Vesna Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 there is a more real aspect of it... which is esoteric way of contemplation. in the east where it's called 'the way of the force' or Tao it correlates to Yin, feminine or the dark side. questions of feelings, emotions, life and death... It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend... The Chinese character Tao (Dao) means "path" or "way", although in Chinese religion and philosophy it has taken on more abstract meanings. Taoist thought focuses on health, longevity, immortality, wu wei (non-action) and spontaneity. A number of martial arts traditions, particularly T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Bagua Zhang, Won Yuen Yat Hey Jueng, Bak Mei Pai, Bok Fou Pai, Yaw Gong Moon and Xing Yi Quan, embody Taoist principles to a greater or lesser extent, and some practitioners consider their art to be a means of practicing Taoism. Chinese alchemy is a part of the larger tradition of Taosim, which centers on the tradition of body cultivation that developed through the Chinese understandings of medicine and the body. These Chinese traditions were developed into a system of energy practices. Taoists believe that man is a microcosm for the universe. In Taoism, even beyond Chinese folk religion, various rituals, exercises, and substances are said to positively affect one's physical and mental health. They are also intended to align oneself spiritually with cosmic forces, or enable ecstatic spiritual journeys. These concepts seem basic to Taoism in its elite forms. Internal alchemy and spiritual practices are used by some Taoists to improve health and extend life, theoretically even to the point of physical immortality. The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. - Is it possible to learn this power? Not from a Jedi.
scrappy Posted February 9, 2009 Author Posted February 9, 2009 The singularity is near, and when that happens watch out for emergent immortality via digital reduction (or quantum reduction) in some highly advanced computer. Today we are biological blobs of meat; tomorrow we''ll all be interactive files in the National Archive of Virtual Immortality. And those files will be guaranteed to last a billion times longer than your natural biological lifetime. I'm guessing all the people will abandon their churches in search of this high-tech immortality. (It'll be bigger than MSDOS.)
Vesna Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) The singularity is near, and when that happens watch out for emergent immortality via digital reduction (or quantum reduction) in some highly advanced computer. Today we are biological blobs of meat; tomorrow we''ll all be interactive files in the National Archive of Virtual Immortality. And those files will be guaranteed to last a billion times longer than your natural biological lifetime. I'm guessing all the people will abandon their churches in search of this high-tech immortality. (It'll be bigger than MSDOS.) obviously with that kind of technology we expect the virtual world to be as real as reality itself, but then mobile immortality robots could be used to drive around real world rather than to live in some virtual world. if we have that kind of technology then how close to real human body we could make those robots, will people choose virtual reality or would they try to mobilize their virtual selves and drive around like the jar-heads in futurama? the other thing i wanted to say with my first post is that there is no real biological reason, that science knows of, which would limit biological age. in other words, with the kind of technology you are talking about, there might be a parallel tendency to enhance biological body and longevity with artificial implants like Darth Vader, if not with natural substances, medicine and meditation like Yoda. Edited February 10, 2009 by Vesna
scrappy Posted February 10, 2009 Author Posted February 10, 2009 obviously with that kind of technology we expect the virtual world to be as real as reality itself, but then mobile immortality robots could be used to drive around real world rather than to live in some virtual world. if we have that kind of technology then how close to real human body we could make those robots, will people choose virtual reality or would they try to mobilize their virtual selves and drive around like the jar-heads in futurama? the other thing i wanted to say with my first post is that there is no real biological reason, that science knows of, which would limit biological age. in other words, with the kind of technology you are talking about, there might be a parallel tendency to enhance biological body and longevity with artificial implants like Darth Vader, if not with natural substances, medicine and meditation like Yoda. But is a faux biological existence really what immortality will be like? Why is there a need to ape the physiological body to assure immortality? Why wouldn't virtual immortality be enough to accomplish everything we desire? If a lepidopteran larva insisted on being a caterpillar forever it could never become a butterfly.
Vesna Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) But is a faux biological existence really what immortality will be like? what do you mean "be like"? it depends on what people desire and what is technologically possible. i say people should naturally prefer to be mobile within the real world, rather than to be "fixed" inside some virtual reality computer. what is the point of immortality if your consciousness is bound to some box and not able to explore the universe? Why is there a need to ape the physiological body to assure immortality? how soon do you think people will get bored inside virtual reality computer? infinity is a long time to be spending inside some box. Why wouldn't virtual immortality be enough to accomplish everything we desire? infinity? desire? enough? with infinity, you better never run out of desire, otherwise it might not only be enough, but too much even. what is it "we" desire and what would you rather have, infinity inside virtual reality box, or real-world infinity? If a lepidopteran larva insisted on being a caterpillar forever it could never become a butterfly. are you suggesting that if we don't die we can't go to heaven? perhaps you're suggesting it could be a natural way of evolution, to progress as some "human hive mind" inside some virtual environment. if so that would not be evolution, it would be a step back from a free roaming butterfly to jailed caterpillar. what would you rather, be a butterfly for one day or caterpillar for the whole eternity? Edited February 10, 2009 by Vesna
johnbrandy Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Immortality is a concept, an idea, nothing more, and nothing less. All else is speculation, and wishful thinking. It is exactly the same as the question, what is death, or the after life, and as impossible to answer. Applying immortality to memory is a categorical error. Immortality does not mean some particular body of facts or information will remain forever in human memory. Immortality denotes an everlasting quality of existence, in some consciousness form. Such questions fall well outside of human cognition, whether true or not. Is this fact not obvious? Yet, this type of questions forces the mind to confront its purpose and place, in the broadest sense, and can lead to a way of reflecting and introspection that is capable of deeper insight.
scrappy Posted February 11, 2009 Author Posted February 11, 2009 how soon do you think people will get bored inside virtual reality computer? infinity is a long time to be spending inside some box. Perhaps our biological existence is the box you're speaking of. And perhaps a virtual immortality will be the freedom we all desire. Our drive to survive is built in; we seek immortality as if it were a real thing. People believe in religions because they offer hope for afterlives—dancing virgins may or may not apply. Our drive to survive is so overwhelming that technological immortality is almost assured. It's only a mater of time (no pun intended). what would you rather, be a butterfly for one day or caterpillar for the whole eternity? I'm holding out for eternal butterfly-ness, because caterpillars don't get to have sex. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedImmortality denotes an everlasting quality of existence, in some consciousness form. John, we still don't even know yet what consciousness is. Are you going to dismiss the possibility of virtual immortality before you understand the Big C? A good argument could be made that human consciousness is actually virtual, since it requires electromagnetism and memory storage. Such questions fall well outside of human cognition, whether true or not. Is this fact not obvious? Yet, this type of questions forces the mind to confront its purpose and place, in the broadest sense, and can lead to a way of reflecting and introspection that is capable of deeper insight. Maybe not so obvious. We are just getting stated on our quest for immortality, whatever that is or will be. I estimate that, historically, humans have spent more money, time, and effort seeking immortality than they have seeking land, food, and sex. What is our drive to survive if not a drive toward immortality?
brokenportal Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 Immortality already has a users manual. We are already well underway with working on making it happen. There are 7 diseases that age our cells and we are busy furiously supporting ways to research them. Its not immortality that we call it per say though, its indefinity. We can never live forever, because you will never know if you will die tomorrow. You could make it to 10 zillion years old, but still die the next day.
Vgamer1 Posted February 26, 2009 Posted February 26, 2009 The singularity is near, and when that happens watch out for emergent immortality via digital reduction (or quantum reduction) in some highly advanced computer. Today we are biological blobs of meat; tomorrow we''ll all be interactive files in the National Archive of Virtual Immortality. And those files will be guaranteed to last a billion times longer than your natural biological lifetime. I'm guessing all the people will abandon their churches in search of this high-tech immortality. (It'll be bigger than MSDOS.) The singularity occurring doesn't necessarily grant us the power to be immortal. I'm not really sure if true immortality is possible at all. Accidents can happen. I hope you don't want to get into the "but you could backup your consciousness" idea, because I'm having that debate on another forum and it's a bit tiring lol. Basically, I agree that we can be immune to "aging" at some point so that we'd never die of "natural causes" whatever that means. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedImmortality already has a users manual. We are already well underway with working on making it happen. There are 7 diseases that age our cells and we are busy furiously supporting ways to research them. Its not immortality that we call it per say though, its indefinity. We can never live forever, because you will never know if you will die tomorrow. You could make it to 10 zillion years old, but still die the next day. brokenportal is right. We're working on "immortality" as we speak, but that doesn't stop the random freak accidents or murders from happening.
Mr Skeptic Posted February 26, 2009 Posted February 26, 2009 Yes, I believe we will eventually gain an immortality of sorts, possibly within my lifetime. We should eventually be able to put an end to biological aging, though that will be difficult. If computers continue becoming more powerful at the rate they have been doing so for decades, then they will soon be powerful enough to simulate a brain. You might be able to copy your essence, your "soul" to a computer, and an advantage is that this would allow for multiple inactive backups. With a purely biological system, backups would be much harder, so you would be quite susceptible to accidents and murder. In any case, you may be able to achieve immortality today. If you are cryogenically frozen, your body should last for a long time, and if ever we can resurrect you or copy you to a computer, it would help you live long enough for us to develop immortality. Or, you might just be a frozen corpse, I don't really know.
john5746 Posted February 26, 2009 Posted February 26, 2009 Immortality should be illegal. It's the last thing humanity needs.
Royston Posted February 26, 2009 Posted February 26, 2009 Immortal Kombat, would be no fun to play at all. 'Finish him!'....I can't !!! 1
Vgamer1 Posted February 26, 2009 Posted February 26, 2009 Yes, I believe we will eventually gain an immortality of sorts, possibly within my lifetime. We should eventually be able to put an end to biological aging, though that will be difficult. If computers continue becoming more powerful at the rate they have been doing so for decades, then they will soon be powerful enough to simulate a brain. You might be able to copy your essence, your "soul" to a computer, and an advantage is that this would allow for multiple inactive backups. With a purely biological system, backups would be much harder, so you would be quite susceptible to accidents and murder. In any case, you may be able to achieve immortality today. If you are cryogenically frozen, your body should last for a long time, and if ever we can resurrect you or copy you to a computer, it would help you live long enough for us to develop immortality. Or, you might just be a frozen corpse, I don't really know. Mr Skeptic, I don't know if this thread is the place to get into this debate, but a "backup" wouldn't really be you if the original you dies, it would just be a copy. Are you guys familiar with the concept of singularity? It is directly related to the topic of ending biological aging. You should check out the immortality institute: http://www.imminst.org There's a forum there about these topics. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedImmortality should be illegal. It's the last thing humanity needs. Are you going to back this up at all? I could argue that immortality would be the best thing for humanity and ultimately humanity's end point. There is the idea (going along with the singularity) that we are approaching a post-human era, one of the features of which is immortality.
1nc4rnation Posted March 5, 2009 Posted March 5, 2009 Immortality will make suicide rates skyrocket, because the new human bloodsport would be to make immortal people so miserable as to want to kill themselves.
brokenportal Posted April 18, 2009 Posted April 18, 2009 Immorality is the most desired commodity in the world. Religions mine it, process it, and sell it to the masses, gaining both huge profits and preponderant power in world affairs. The Christian religion, for example, promises an afterlife in heaven with Jesus and his celebrated Father. Islam promises about the same thing: Mohammed will be up there, too, along and a bunch of dancing virgins. But that kind of immortality is not for everyone. What constitutes immortality? How would you know if you’re immortal or not. Woody Allen said once that immortality is a hard sell because it will take forever to prove its worth. But wait. Is flesh and blood immortality really what we’re after? Or is it another kind? It’s true that some of us are more immortal than others, if we count durability of the human memory as a measure of immortality. I would venture say that as long as human memory exists people like Socrates and Hitler will live immortally, at least in terms of being remembered. John Updike died yesterday, after achieving literary immortality with his Rabbit novels. If that kind of immortality is a measure of anything then I’m absolutely sure that Updike got more of it than I ever will. As long as we remain alive as biological creatures, believing that immortality must be a biological thing, we are bound to be disappointed. The same thing can be said about spiritual immortality: it’s taking more and more clapping to keep Tinker Bell alive, and someday we’ll run out of claps. The answer to immortality in the twenty-first century is not going to be found in the biological sciences or chemistry, because it will not be an extension of molecular biology. It will be an extension of Facebook or YouTube—computerized downloads of digital information about humans and life on this planet. And the uploading has already. Today, for all practical purposes, you are immortal if you are Googleable. As long as humans and computers are around, which will be forever in human terms, your cyber immortality is assured. In the long term it’s the only immortality that will ever have any real meaning. This is why we need to write a User’s Manual for immortality. So, I’m out fishing for chapter titles. Any suggestions? Being alive through memory and books and computers is great and all, but it can confuse people and make them think that maybe they do "live on". There is a big difference between being alive and enjoying life and experience and having your name written in the corner of a couple dozen books somewhere. We want to be able to have the chance to witness the future indefinite pioneering of the universe and all of existence and we want the chance to know the requisite 8. By the way, for anybody interested in the science that is working to help us live with indefinite healthy lifespans, one of the worlds leading researchers, Dr. Aubrey deGrey, is going to be interviewed live tomorrow, sunday April 19th at 5pm cst time here: imminst.org/tv If you watch it, the please comment on it here in scienceforums.
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