cameron marical Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 could you have something like a fan, wich the propellers were connected to small generators, and theres also mini windmills on the blow-side wich take in energy from there too. would it make more than it used? it uses 2 energy supplies to make it, the mechanical energy of the fan blades moving, and the wind energy from the moving air. i think it might help if it was all in an airtight "shell" too. and if it could work then it could also be used in bigger curcamstances.
Moontanman Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 could you have something like a fan, wich the propellers were connected to small generators, and theres also mini windmills on the blow-side wich take in energy from there too. would it make more than it used? No, absolutely not. it uses 2 energy supplies to make it, the mechanical energy of the fan blades moving, and the wind energy from the moving air. i think it might help if it was all in an airtight "shell" too. and if it could work then it could also be used in bigger curcamstances. Again no it would not work, you cannot get more energy out of system than you put in, you cannot even break even. Friction will always keep you from even coming close.
jian Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 The energy conversion in the fan is : electric power-----> mechanical energy of the fan itself+ mechanical energy of the moving air+heat loss due to resistance of the coil. The enerfy is always conserved. The moving of the blade makes the nearby air to move. Then there is a pressure difference betwwen the staionary air and the moving air. Then the air starts to flow and blow. Overall, the electric energy are converted many kinds of energy, however, the total amount of energy is always a constant. If you consider the mass energy equality, the energy conservation and mass conservation are combined together. That is the generlized conservation law.
npts2020 Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 well, ouch. Don't be discouraged. You can't let the (unattainable) perfect get in the way of the good. Even if you can't build a perpetual motion machine, even one that is simply more efficient, has better applications, or is cheaper would be very worthwhile.
insane_alien Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 yeah, even though there are some things that can never be achieved, those that can tend to be FAR more interesting.
ajb Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 You should also take the attitude that it is interesting and worthwhile to understand why something will not work.
cameron marical Posted February 6, 2009 Author Posted February 6, 2009 hmm. so it seems that everything is always fueled off of something else. what about gravity? gravity creaties energy off of just the planets mass, so arent planets examples of how you can make energy from nothing. i know that it takes energy to create anything, naturally or artificially, but after a long period of time you could even make up for the energy it took to make a planet and create more energy out of nothing but the planets gravitational motion or bent space.
SkepticLance Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Cameron Gravity does not create energy. It merely releases stored energy. Think of it like this. If you lift an object up off the Earth, against gravity, it takes energy. That energy is stored by the position of the object high above the Earth. When the object falls, the energy is released again. The same in astronomy. The Earth's position in relation to the sun is the result of a hell of a lot of stored energy. If the Earth were to fall, that energy would be released, and it is a lot of energy. The universe is full of energies of this nature (known as gravitational potential energy.). Where did it all come from? Originally from that ultimate source of energy - the Big Bang, when all objects in the universe were thrown apart. The energy used to separate everything in the original explosion is now gravitational potential energy, and is recovered when things fall together.
cameron marical Posted February 7, 2009 Author Posted February 7, 2009 if so, doesnt that mean that earths, or any planets gravitational pull will gradually diminish after a long period of time, as the energy is realeased as gravity? surely, gravity doesnt really upon meteors to make gravity. or does it all just get recycled?
SkepticLance Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 Cameron The gravitational pull depends on the mass of the object, and the distance from it. If these do not change, then time will not alter the gravitational pull. If an object falls, then it will end up with less gravitational potential energy. Just to complicate matters, sometimes the opposite happens. If energy is added, the object can move further out, gaining more gravitational potential energy. The Earth's moon is doing this. Extra energy that comes from the spinning of the Earth is transferred to the moon, moving it further out, which leaves it with more gravitational potential energy. If something encounters friction, it loses energy as heat, and falls inward, as it gives up its gravitational potential energy. Man made satellites in low orbit do this, as they rub against the thin outer atmosphere. This creates heat from friction, and the satellites lose their gravitational potential energy (it turns to heat energy) and fall inwards.
cameron marical Posted February 8, 2009 Author Posted February 8, 2009 ok, then that makes me wonder. what creates energy? is energy just a thing that gets infinitely recycled as other forms of itself? can you create energy?
SkepticLance Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 Cameron You cannot create energy, but you can transform it into other forms, and you can release energy by destroying matter. Matter can be regarded as a kind of stored energy, and it can be converted to energy during nuclear processes. Where energy came from? Initially from the Big Bang. And do not ask me how that happened, because there are so many theories, and no-one really knows.
cameron marical Posted February 8, 2009 Author Posted February 8, 2009 i see. well i wont ask were energy came from, but i will ask you one more question if you dont mind. 1 can energy be destroyed? like say you launched a rocket on its side, and the rocket is against alot of concrete, would the energy from the rocket just diminish since it has no where to go? or heres another. say you have a photon, beaming out in space, i know that a photon is energy in the form of light. {at least i think} so, dosnt that photons light/energy quantity die off after a while? p.s. thanks for explaining this all to me man.
insane_alien Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 nope, energy isn't destroyed either. in the case of the rocket and the concrete wall, the energy goes into the heat, sound, breaking the concrete up(will eventually become heat) and the kinetic energy of the resultant debris. in the case of the photon, it will carry on eternally until it hits something.
cameron marical Posted February 8, 2009 Author Posted February 8, 2009 oh, cool. thanks guys. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedwait, what about black holes? i know no one really knows where the energy goes in those, but ill just ask you, {anyone who reads this and wants to reply} what do you think happens to the stuff that goes into them? didnt stephen hawking come up with the idea that it just gets converted to nothingness? or something along those lines?
SkepticLance Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 Cameron No-one really knows what happens inside a black hole. We may never find out, since it is impossible in theory to look inside one, or carry out any tests or measurements beneath the event horizon. The idea that energy just gets destroyed inside a black hole is not an idea that is widely believed. It probably converts to another form, such as the energy of movement by making the black hole spin.
cameron marical Posted February 8, 2009 Author Posted February 8, 2009 ah, heres another. you have 2 things in space, they ram into each other, i know theres no sound in space because theirs nothing for it to travel through, but where would the sound energy go? would it just have more collision force in space becuase theres no sound, it instead is converted into more of the collision itselfs energy?
SkepticLance Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 Cameron As you say, there is no sound in space. Thus no energy gets converted to sound. Instead it takes different forms, such as heat and the energy of movement of all the flying debris. Whatever happens, the energy is not destroyed - merely converted to other forms of energy.
timetes Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 CameronGravity does not create energy. It merely releases stored energy. Think of it like this. If you lift an object up off the Earth, against gravity, it takes energy. That energy is stored by the position of the object high above the Earth. When the object falls, the energy is released again. The same in astronomy. The Earth's position in relation to the sun is the result of a hell of a lot of stored energy. If the Earth were to fall, that energy would be released, and it is a lot of energy. The universe is full of energies of this nature (known as gravitational potential energy.). Where did it all come from? Originally from that ultimate source of energy - the Big Bang, when all objects in the universe were thrown apart. The energy used to separate everything in the original explosion is now gravitational potential energy, and is recovered when things fall together. ok "gravitational potential energy" lets store it and use it....LOL and get rid of oil.
Klaynos Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 ok "gravitational potential energy" lets store it and use it....LOL and get rid of oil. And how pray would you do that? If you roll something down a hill and extract the energy you had to get it to the top of the hill to start with.
Mr Skeptic Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 hmm. so it seems that everything is always fueled off of something else. That is essentially correct. what about gravity? gravity creaties energy off of just the planets mass, so arent planets examples of how you can make energy from nothing. i know that it takes energy to create anything, naturally or artificially, but after a long period of time you could even make up for the energy it took to make a planet and create more energy out of nothing but the planets gravitational motion or bent space. Just remember: force is not energy. A rock is constantly exerting a force on the ground equal to its weight, and the ground is exerting a normal force equal and opposite to the rock's weight. Neither the rock nor the ground are expending energy. To get a change in energy (aka work) you need to move a distance against a force. For example a rock gets energy when it falls, but it would take an equal amount of energy to lift the rock back where it was, and in the process you will lose energy due to friction and other forces. You can however get energy from earth's gravitation. For example, solar energy evaporates water, and it rains and collects in rivers and starts flowing downward. You can build a dam to collect the gravitational potential energy of the water, and let the sun lift the water upstream. You can also use the moon's gravitational potential energy, by using the tides to power a generator.
cameron marical Posted February 9, 2009 Author Posted February 9, 2009 wow, i actually have no more questions here, thanks guys. really.
cameron marical Posted February 28, 2009 Author Posted February 28, 2009 ok. i thought up another one. i know, been a while. my bad. alright. so, if say, we filled mars with alot of windmills, and then brodcast that harvested electricity through radio waves back to earth, well, after a while, wed be getting all this free energy, but what would be happening to mars? the wind wouldnt just stop would it? but, judging on this post, theres only the energy that there is, no more no less.{if that makes sense}. so what would happen on mars after we harvested all that energy off of it just through wind. and solar, but thats external source anywhay, so no need to worry about that one.
Mr Skeptic Posted February 28, 2009 Posted February 28, 2009 Wind is a form of solar energy. The sun heats air, hot air rises, cold air moves in to take its place.
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