Obscured radiation physics related to nuclear power

[Styrge]

Background radiation level is constantly increasing mostly because of civilian nuclear power. Radiation is said not to store into matter but actually that is one of the basic attributes of radiation in a frictionless quantum world.

 

Neutron activation is the most straight forward mechanism. Nuclear reactors produce 1,5 excess neutrons per fission which must escape the reactor not to make it over-critical. As an electrically neutral particle neutron penetrates matter easily especially after 30 years (former operation maximum) the structures of a power plant become fully saturated and they pass into the environment.

 

Neutrons that are not absorbed nor traveling through walls must be ventilated out before they burst into proton and electron (and neutrino). It takes about 15 minutes. Intense ionization follows the reaction, so intense it would kill workers if the air flow was stopped for quarter of an hour. That's the reason for a chimney in a nuclear power plant anyway.

 

Saturation occurs with gamma-rays also. Reactor leaks most of the gamma out after just a few years. It is not turned into heat but only with some 1% of it's energy. The rest of witch ionizes and charges atoms. In the charge of any nucleus (expect basic hydrogen) this radiation energy can also travel out from the power plant unnoticed.

 

I also have a web page about this:

 

http://www.styrge.com/English.html

 

Especially interesting is the section with pictures of the colorful consequences from this escaping radiation/ionization:

 

http://www.styrge.com/Betaflare.html

[swansont]

Background radiation level is constantly increasing mostly because of civilian nuclear power. Radiation is said not to store into matter but actually that is one of the basic attributes of radiation in a frictionless quantum world.

 

Neutron activation is the most straight forward mechanism. Nuclear reactors produce 1,5 excess neutrons per fission which must escape the reactor not to make it over-critical. As an electrically neutral particle neutron penetrates matter easily especially after 30 years (former operation maximum) the structures of a power plant become fully saturated and they pass into the environment.

 

Most of these neutrons are absorbed in the reactor itself. The lifetime of a plant is more likely related to mechanical effects (fast neutron embrittlement). It is certainly not because the material is saturated with neutrons.

 

 

Neutrons that are not absorbed nor traveling through walls must be ventilated out before they burst into proton and electron (and neutrino). It takes about 15 minutes. Intense ionization follows the reaction, so intense it would kill workers if the air flow was stopped for quarter of an hour. That's the reason for a chimney in a nuclear power plant anyway.

 

This should come as quite a surprise to anyone who has served aboard a nuclear submarine. The "chimney" to which you refer is most likely the cooling tower, i.e. a heat-exchanger for the secondary loop.

 

 

Saturation occurs with gamma-rays also.

 

No, it doesn't.

[YT2095]

Moved to P&S.

[ydoaPs]

Background radiation level is constantly increasing mostly because of civilian nuclear power.

I may be in the military sector, but I did do a co-op in a plant owned/controlled by civillians(a subsidiary of Lockheed Martin). Civilian plants do have shielding.

 

Neutron activation is the most straight forward mechanism. Nuclear reactors produce 1,5 excess neutrons per fission which must escape the reactor not to make it over-critical. As an electrically neutral particle neutron penetrates matter easily especially after 30 years (former operation maximum) the structures of a power plant become fully saturated and they pass into the environment.

Most of this radiative capture is in the poisons, fuel, and structural material before the neutrons even reach the shields. That is why we shift the brittle fraction prevention limit curves; we use the worst case end of life neutron embrittlement. Then, you have the moderator which thermalises the neutrons(slows them down to the temperature of the surrounding fuel/structural material/moderator/etc) and the reflector which send neutrons back into the core. Then we have the primary shield. Then there is a long distance (DR₁=DR₂(r₁/r₂)²) which greatly decreases the dose rate. If that isn't enough, we then have the secondary shield! In a year underway, I receive less radiation than you do(especially if you live in a valley and/or fly often).

 

Neutrons that are not absorbed nor traveling through walls must be ventilated out before they burst into proton and electron (and neutrino). It takes about 15 minutes. Intense ionization follows the reaction, so intense it would kill workers if the air flow was stopped for quarter of an hour. That's the reason for a chimney in a nuclear power plant anyway.

I actually have no idea where you got this load of misinformation. The only thing I can even picture you talking about here is the cooling towers(often seen with steam coming out the top) which are for, surprise surprise, cooling. They're actually for the steam plant, not the reactor plant.

 

Saturation occurs with gamma-rays also. Reactor leaks most of the gamma out after just a few years. It is not turned into heat but only with some 1% of it's energy.

What?

 

radiation energy can also travel out from the power plant unnoticed.

I guess we should just stop using thermoluminescent dosimeters and doing routine radiation surveys.

 

When will you people ever actually learn something before you try to attack?

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Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

Out of curiosity, what happens to the radiation from cell phones, microwave ovens, television remotes, RC cars, GPS devices, etc?

[Styrge]

Photons are forever. No matter how low frequency they travel timeless in space. We are gaining radiation as energy doesn't disappear and single interactions can happen both ways. (Mystery of high energy cosmic rays lightens...)

 

So don't be hasty. Ideas new are mandatory for developing science and the headline told you that you maybe have not encountered these issues, otherwise they won't be obscured. Now to counter criticism.

 

First I meant the ventilation pipe as a way for the radiation to escape. Cooling towers are not used in Finland. But why is a pipe merely for room temperature air as high as hundred meters!

 

In this country the nuclear mafia is so strong that even neutron embrittlement is a taboo. Still almost every part in the nuclear power plant is replaced at some point. Well, as they break paranormally soon.

 

Information comes mainly from Arto Lauri, former nuclear power plant worker who got fired revealing such information. He in turn relies on the nuclear shell model. (Actually checking on it again I noticed even high energy electrons can excite the nucleus!)

 

One could call saturation point the moment when radioactive isotopes in reactor casing, inner shield and outer shield release neutrons at the same rate they are absorbed. As you already mentioned the embrittlement, it's an indication of the same thing! Neutrons altering matter.

 

Radiating a led shield for example reveals similarly how the attenuation decreases and eventyally everything is coming through. Saturation. (Averagely so, actually it can multiply the flux momentarily.)

[swansont]

Photons are forever. No matter how low frequency they travel timeless in space. We are gaining radiation as energy doesn't disappear and single interactions can happen both ways. (Mystery of high energy cosmic rays lightens...)

 

Photons interact. They do not last forever unless they manage to somehow escape interaction.

 

So don't be hasty. Ideas new are mandatory for developing science and the headline told you that you maybe have not encountered these issues, otherwise they won't be obscured. Now to counter criticism.

 

First I meant the ventilation pipe as a way for the radiation to escape. Cooling towers are not used in Finland. But why is a pipe merely for room temperature air as high as hundred meters!

 

Still wrong, though. There is no radiation ventilation pipe. Radiation would not "know" how to find its way into such a device.

 

 

In this country the nuclear mafia is so strong that even neutron embrittlement is a taboo. Still almost every part in the nuclear power plant is replaced at some point. Well, as they break paranormally soon.

 

Information comes mainly from Arto Lauri, former nuclear power plant worker who got fired revealing such information. He in turn relies on the nuclear shell model. (Actually checking on it again I noticed even high energy electrons can excite the nucleus!)

 

Nonsensical. What does the nuclear shell model have to do with reactor safety concerns? How can fast neutron embrittlement be a taboo?

 

One could call saturation point the moment when radioactive isotopes in reactor casing, inner shield and outer shield release neutrons at the same rate they are absorbed. As you already mentioned the embrittlement, it's an indication of the same thing! Neutrons altering matter.

 

Radiating a led shield for example reveals similarly how the attenuation decreases and eventyally everything is coming through. Saturation. (Averagely so, actually it can multiply the flux momentarily.)

 

You have no physical basis for these statements. For a shield to emit neutrons as fast as they are absorbed, for example, no capture reactions can be occurring. What materials (specific isotopes, please) do this?

[Styrge]

Photons interact. They do not last forever unless they manage to somehow escape interaction.

Let's just say they wait for a good moment to re-appear after every event.

Still wrong, though. There is no radiation ventilation pipe. Radiation would not "know" how to find its way into such a device.

As the radiation energy is stored in the charge of the nucleus it can travel out with the atoms in air. Cold neutrons from the reactor act the same way.

Nonsensical. What does the nuclear shell model have to do with reactor safety concerns? How can fast neutron embrittlement be a taboo?

Nuclear shell model explains the exited and metastable states.

 

Erosion by either fast or slow neutrons is denied by the Finnish radiation protection officials.

 

You have no physical basis for these statements. For a shield to emit neutrons as fast as they are absorbed, for example, no capture reactions can be occurring. What materials (specific isotopes, please) do this?

Capture with almost immediate or delayed release, why not? Here are some isotopes: N-13, C-14, Si-32, P-32, S-35, Cl-36, Ar-39, K-40, Ca-45, Cr-55, Fe-55.

[swansont]

Let's just say they wait for a good moment to re-appear after every event.

 

Oh, let's not say that. Let's restrict ourselves to scientific reality.

 

When the photons interact, energy is transferred to the surrounding atoms. There is no way they can just re-appear; energy is conserved. e.g. a high-energy gamma that gets converted to an electron positron pair will not — cannot — reappear. You will get annihilation photons of a lower energy.

 

 

 

As the radiation energy is stored in the charge of the nucleus it can travel out with the atoms in air. Cold neutrons from the reactor act the same way.

 

Energy is not stored in the charge of the nucleus. That's nonsense.

 

Nuclear shell model explains the exited and metastable states.

 

I think you mean excited, but how does this tie in with someone getting fired?

 

 

 

Capture with almost immediate or delayed release, why not? Here are some isotopes: N-13, C-14, Si-32, P-32, S-35, Cl-36, Ar-39, K-40, Ca-45, Cr-55, Fe-55.

 

And which of these are used as shielding? Your most likely element from that list is Fe, but Fe-55 isn't stable. Most iron is Fe-56, and Fe-57 and -58 are both stable; this suggests they have nonzero neutron capture cross-sections.

[Styrge]

Oh, let's not say that. Let's restrict ourselves to scientific reality.

 

When the photons interact, energy is transferred to the surrounding atoms. There is no way they can just re-appear; energy is conserved. e.g. a high-energy gamma that gets converted to an electron positron pair will not — cannot — reappear. You will get annihilation photons of a lower energy.

Ok, photon compression, which I claim to exist is not so common but still possible. A fascinating example extracted from Wikipedia:

 

"Sum-frequency generation (SFG) is an example of a second order non-linear optical process. This phenomenon is based on the annihilation of two input photons at frequencies ω1 and ω2 while, simultaneously, one photon at frequency ω3 is generated."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_frequency_generation

 

 

Energy is not stored in the charge of the nucleus. That's nonsense.

Or is it? Wikipedia-article presents a table of radon isotopes with an "excitation energy" column:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_radon

 

I think you mean excited, but how does this tie in with someone getting fired?

Understanding or even investigating this mechanism seems to be taken as harmful by the nuclear power industry. (I still seek further comprehension.)

 

 

And which of these are used as shielding? Your most likely element from that list is Fe, but Fe-55 isn't stable. Most iron is Fe-56, and Fe-57 and -58 are both stable; this suggests they have nonzero neutron capture cross-sections.

Yes, Fe-58 seems to have one barn and the chain goes on: Fe-59 (b-) -> Co-59 + n -> Co-60 (b-) -> Ni-60 +n -> Ni-61 +n -> Ni-62 +n -> Ni-63 (n).

 

A bit far feched but nevertheless performs a neutron emission. (K-39 is common in concrete and does this in one step.) I got the point that this shouldn't be a significant phenomenon but saturation can be seen in the radioactive product emission rates:

 

Tritium graph from Olkiluoto indicates neutron saturation:

 

Growth in induced dose rate (however it was measured...) from multiple plants show similiar behaviour and gamma saturation is so far the best explanation:

[swansont]

Ok, photon compression, which I claim to exist is not so common but still possible. A fascinating example extracted from Wikipedia:

 

"Sum-frequency generation (SFG) is an example of a second order non-linear optical process. This phenomenon is based on the annihilation of two input photons at frequencies ω1 and ω2 while, simultaneously, one photon at frequency ω3 is generated."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_frequency_generation

 

Sum-frequency generation requires a nonlinear material to do the mixing. It's not trivial to do with any reasonable efficiency. This is going to be a negligible effect for gammas.

 

 

Or is it? Wikipedia-article presents a table of radon isotopes with an "excitation energy" column:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_radon

 

Excitation is not "storing energy in the charge." If excitation is what you mean, then call it that. But after excitation, nuclei then de-excite.

 

 

Yes, Fe-58 seems to have one barn and the chain goes on: Fe-59 (b-) -> Co-59 + n -> Co-60 (b-) -> Ni-60 +n -> Ni-61 +n -> Ni-62 +n -> Ni-63 (n).

 

A bit far feched but nevertheless performs a neutron emission. (K-39 is common in concrete and does this in one step.) I got the point that this shouldn't be a significant phenomenon but saturation can be seen in the radioactive product emission rates:

 

Tritium graph from Olkiluoto indicates neutron saturation:

 

Growth in induced dose rate (however it was measured...) from multiple plants show similiar behaviour and gamma saturation is so far the best explanation:

 

Without more information, I don't know what those graphs indicate. The second one has dose rates leveling off — dose rates near a reactor will initially increase, because of neutron activation and the buildup of decay products. That has nothing to do with any purported saturation of the shielding.

[Styrge]

Sum-frequency generation requires a nonlinear material to do the mixing. It's not trivial to do with any reasonable efficiency. This is going to be a negligible effect for gammas.

True, but there are other mechanism. Neutron, which is essentially a proton and an electron combined almost cancelling each others charge, can gain energy by rotating faster until releasing half a MeV as a single gamma. Though photonuclear cross-sections are small they exist.

 

 

Excitation is not "storing energy in the charge." If excitation is what you mean, then call it that. But after excitation, nuclei then de-excite.

It's more descriptive to say nuclei release energy than de-excite after getting out from the nuclear power plant, which is why I started this thread.

 

About the graphs: first one tells about tritium buildup (neutron activation) into the environment near the power plant and the increace in the end suggest more neutrons coming out (or more superheavy water emissions).

 

The leveling off thing in the second was more informative concerning saturation: at some point a steady flow of gamma is recorded from every nuclear facility and I find no other explanation than shielding efficiency reduction to a certain level.

[swansont]

Neutron, which is essentially a proton and an electron combined almost cancelling each others charge, can gain energy by rotating faster until releasing half a MeV as a single gamma.

 

No.

 

It's more descriptive to say nuclei release energy than de-excite after getting out from the nuclear power plant, which is why I started this thread.

 

You haven't established that the nuclei "get out"

 

About the graphs: first one tells about tritium buildup (neutron activation) into the environment near the power plant and the increace in the end suggest more neutrons coming out (or more superheavy water emissions).

 

 

The actual activity will depend on the operation history of the plant. In general, if there is no removal mechanism other than decay, you'd expect an increase simply because Tritium has a 12.3 year half-life — it will take ~60 years to get close to equilibrium values. You can also get fluctuations by changing the non-decay removal rate.

 

 

The leveling off thing in the second was more informative concerning saturation: at some point a steady flow of gamma is recorded from every nuclear facility and I find no other explanation than shielding efficiency reduction to a certain level.

 

Radiation levels increase from neutron activation and increase in fission products. Neither of which implies a decrease in shielding efficiency.

[Styrge]

But the way they increase: a distinctive change in the angle at some point. Another mystery is the air ventilation pipe, why so tall if it wasn't exhausting something hazardous? (Like charged nuclei and free neutrons.)

 

This explains the mysterious leukemia cases around nuclear power plants reported from Germany and USA. Also the 1% annual growth in cancer among European youth: http://www.iarc.fr/en/Media-Centre/IARC-Press-Releases/Archives-2006-2004/2004/IARC-study-shows-increasing-Cancer-rates-in-children-in-Europe

[swansont]

But the way they increase: a distinctive change in the angle at some point. Another mystery is the air ventilation pipe, why so tall if it wasn't exhausting something hazardous? (Like charged nuclei and free neutrons.)

 

Show me a picture of the pipe. I don't believe it exists.

[Styrge]

[insane_alien]

can you post a link describing that as an air ventilation pipe?

 

the ventialtion system could have a discharge through that but it is unlikely that air ventilation is the sole purpose or even primary purpose of that chimney.

[Styrge]

Here is a ventilation schema stating "elevated release" for air exhaust:

 

http://www.nucleartourist.com/system_images/RBHVAC.gif

 

What would be the other possible uses? Such a massive structure for air is explained if the radiation and ionization output is hazardous.

[insane_alien]

hardly conclusive is it.

 

"elevated release" could refer to a discharge on the roof which is a fairly common position for HVAC systems.

 

and anyway, the point is moot, nuclear plants have radiation monitoring equipment EVERYWHERE if ANYTHING radioactive was being vented in such a manner someone would have found out about it.

[ydoaPs]

How many plants have these pipes? If what you say is correct, ALL of them should. Not a single plant I've worked on or seen has had one of these pipes.

[insane_alien]

the closest thing i can find to a radioactive chimney is the windscale plant. This was one of the early plants when they didn't really have the safety measures we did now. The reactor itself was air cooled.

 

the plant was shut down decades ago after the reactor caught fire due to the release of wigner energy in the graphite moderator. very nasty business. to show how early this was in reactor technology, they checked the fire was out by having a guy stand at an access hatch looking directly at the reactor. not a good place to be.

[Styrge]

Those which have water circulation cooling (not the steam tower) have also this "elevated release". Those who work in those kind of plants address it for air. (C'mon, what else?)

 

I think the surveillance data is not public for a good reason. I haven't had access to them. Universities are not allowed to have them. If they proved nothing coming out, they would be released. (Actually, some of it should be public according to our legistlation so at some point I'll get my hands on some of it.)

[swansont]

Here is a ventilation schema stating "elevated release" for air exhaust:

 

http://www.nucleartourist.com/system_images/RBHVAC.gif

 

What would be the other possible uses? Such a massive structure for air is explained if the radiation and ionization output is hazardous.

 

The diagram you posted is labeled "Reactor Building HVAC"

 

HVAC stands for "heating, ventilating, and air conditioning." It has nothing to do with the reactor itself. There is no connection to the primary system. I suspect "elevated release" means it's on the roof, where you might expect vents to be.

[insane_alien]

also, what makes you think neutrons are going to be pumped up there anyway?

 

1/ they do not behave like a gas does when the encounter a fan because they mainly just go through the blades.

 

2/ they decay too quickly.

 

you still haven't proved the chimney is for air conditioning, i have seen it listed as a steam purge and it also has involvement in emergency cooling systems.

 

the reason for its height is actually mainly due to scrubbing to make sure that if there is an accident, nothing radioactive gets out. Its not even tied into direct contact materials so it'd have to be something pretty damn severe before the scrubber has to be there.

[ydoaPs]

Those which have water circulation cooling (not the steam tower) have also this "elevated release". Those who work in those kind of plants address it for air. (C'mon, what else?)

 

What do you mean by "water circulation cooling"? Pressurized water reactors? If so, you're dead wrong. Cooling towers? If so, you're dead wrong.

[Styrge]

also, what makes you think neutrons are going to be pumped up there anyway?

http://www.styrge.com/pic/Elements_of_nuc_neutron_wavel_1.JPG

 

you still haven't proved the chimney is for air conditioning, i have seen it listed as a steam purge and it also has involvement in emergency cooling systems.

 

Nuclear power and the public

(By Harry Foreman, University of Minnesota)

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ld4U6uZNa44C&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=ventilation+pipe+nuclear+power&source=bl&ots=DqGt0CCvb0&sig=20cfJSKQgDmJt1LqxZNsLyZrnCE&hl=en&ei=3WbOSeSyM9nG-QajxvTUBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result

 

"The gases are then dispersed to the environs through a stack or vent pipe which is generally about twice the height of the nearby buildings."

 

Then about background radiation:

http://www.styrge.com/pic/Environmental_effects_tritiumcurve.jpg

 

This indicates that most of the tritium comes from nuclear power, clearly exceeding natural sources. Then compare the 70's natural background of 100 mrem with a more recent "natural" radiation level of 300 mrem:

http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/natural.htm

 

Back to the physics section with this thread?

 

To YdoaPs: Plants that are being cooled with sea water which is not evaporated have this separate vent pipe. I'ts combined with the steam tower in the other version.