Sensory disabilities and LSD

[Toadie]

The background for my experiment is this: I'm really interested in psychoactive drugs, and recently I have been specifically very interested with their sensory effects on people with sensory disabilities (e.g. blindness, deafness, etc.). If someone was born completely blind due to a problem with the eye and *not the brain*, would it be possible for them to experience visual hallucinations while on LSD? Unfortunately I have never done LSD (which in itself I guess is an odd sentence, haha), but I know people often report seeing vibrant colors and geometric shapes/patterns when they close their eyes while tripping on LSD. Obviously the drug affects the brain, not the eye or the light coming into it, so am I right to assume that a completely blind person could have visual sensations while using it? I would think that they would, and would have a very difficult time describing it.

 

Of course, I'm 15 years old, and really don't know much about things like blindness from a scientific/neurological perspective, and I don't know if (for example) when someone is born blind due to problems outside the brain, the visual cortex of the brain shuts off since it is not in use, or something. I'm just extremely curious

 

Also, I read about an experiment in 1999 in which neurobiologists "inserted fiber electrodes into the vision-processing center of the cat's brain". This was the result:

 

 

The blurry images are supposedly the ones captured from the cat's brain, compared to the clear ones which were taken with a regular camera.

 

I also saw a documentary on the Science Channel last night about a blind woman who successfully had electrodes connected to a video camera put onto that part of her brain, and she could indeed see, even if it was nowhere comparable to her sight before she went blind in a car accident.

 

Could the same thing be done to a blind person that was done to the cat, in order to see what they "saw", since they would not likely be able to describe it?

 

 

Sorry if this sounds really messed up!! I don't have any realistic plans to do this, as I'm sure it would be very difficult to find a person willing to be the test subject.

 

EDIT: BTW, should this go here, or in the neuroscience section?

Edited February 23, 2009 by Toadie

[GDG]

In people born blind, the visual cortex is co-opted by other senses, such as hearing and touch. IIRC, when a blind person reads Braile, they are usually using the same part of the brain as a sighted person would use when reading.

 

I don't remember any studies of LSD in congenitally blind subjects, but I would doubt that they'd have visual hallucinations, as their brains would not be "wired for sight." My guess would be auditory, tactile, and kinesthetic (motion or moving) hallucinations instead.

 

Interestingly, you don't have to put electrodes into the brain to restore vision. IIRC, some Paul Bach-y-Rita made a grid of electrodes that is applied to a person's back, and connected to a video camera. You would think that a bunch of prickling sensations on your back is a long way from vision, but if the camera is mounted on your head, and you are able to look around, your brain will perceive the input sensations as "vision like" and with practice you perceive it as visual stimulation (see P. Bach-y-Rita et al., Nature (1969) 221:963-64). Later experiments used an electrode array placed on the tongue (much higher density of sensory nerve endings: P. Bach-y-Rita et al., J Rehab Res Dev (1998) 35:427-30)

 

Yes, probably belongs more in the neuroscience area.

[Toadie]

Thanks for the info! I guess it makes sense that there wouldn't be any visual sensation, but I must say I'm disappointed. I'll definitely check out the other study you mentioned; that sounds really fascinating.

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Just wondering, why would the brain not be wired for sight if the subject was blind due to a problem with the eye, rather than the brain? If there's a problem with the eye, why would that affect the brain? Would the visual cortex be "taken over" by the other senses? I would think that the brain would remain intact as long as the blindness was not a brain problem.

[iNow]

The brain continues to develop as you mature. Different regions which are used more get larger and often co-opt other regions to help spread the processing load. If your eyes don't send visual signals to the occipital cortex, then that region will emaciate. If it's not being used, other regions (such as touch and hearing and smell) may start "borrowing that area" for those senses.

 

Basically, it's setup at birth to be used for vision, but if no signal gets from the eye to that region of the brain, it will be used for other things. It is not "purely" for vision. It's not some rigid infrastructure, but instead a dynamic and ever changing biological system.

[GDG]

Your brain works by strengthening connections that are frequently used, and weakening connections that are seldom used. If the eye->brain circuit is not used at all, other circuits will expand into that area and take over.

 

If you're interested in the topic, I'd recommend "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge. Pretty readable, and not too technical -- a good layman's introduction to neuroplasticity and its implications.

[iNow]

Good point, GDG. I like to think about it like erosion. You have a dirt hill, and it rains. The first time it rains, small channels begin to form, but nothing too deep or wide. Then, it rains again, and the water tends into those channels formed during the previous rain. As more water passes through the channels, they get deeper and wider. Each time it rains, the water is almost all routed into those channels, making them even deeper and wider, until practically ALL rain in the future flows down the hill in those grooves and nowhere else.

 

Similar with neural connections, except with that there is also pruning/snipping of unused connections.

[Xittenn]

Many ideas have been presented in fiction on this subject. Dare Devil had his sight disabled but developed an equivalent sound sensory perception. Buddhist priests and various metaphysical sorts claim to have achieved this sensory perception. In general it's cross referenced with individuals who have become blind. All this has already been stated but the OP included the use of elicit chemicals so....................let's just say for argument sake...........I had a friend. She was a bit of a party animal and a hippie and she indulged in recreational chemistry. She also had a tendency to meditate and had attempted to on several occasions meditate on LSD. Now she says, well attempting to meditate on LCD is rather a difficult task but.......... So one time while she was meditating while having consumed LSD she become deeply entranced. She closed her eyes and listened to her breathing...............in.........and out. All of a sudden she had a new perception of her surroundings. Being that she was not blind she was very capable of describing what she saw without her eyes. She said it was like infrared vision. The walls of her house disappeared. She could see her family walking around two floors above her. She could also see the electrical cords in the walls. The experience was overwhelming and very short lived. The conclusion to her story went something like this.......when smashing your brain with a hammer all sorts of things suddenly become possible. Could a blind person develop an alternative sensory perception well................

Edited March 1, 2009 by buttacup

[nitroglycol]

I knew someone who said she once did some of that stuff at a friend's place, and her friend went to bed. She went down to the basement, where she eventually intended to sleep, but was unable to do so, so she sat up reading for quite some time. Some time later, she decided to try again to go to sleep, and reached to turn off the light... only to discover that it was already off. Upon discovering this, her brain realized that since the basement was pitch dark, all that she had seen was a hallucination... and suddenly she couldn't see anything. Presumably she had to reread the parts she had "read" as well.

 

And now that I think of it, I recall an interview with the congenitally blind Joe Engressia (aka Joybubbles) in which he reminisced about taking LSD and having auditory hallucinations of aircraft dive-bombing him. No visuals though (at least none he was able to describe as such).

[Xittenn]

I kind of feel really bad for having posted any reply at all to this. Even a light conversation about drug use can be so damaging. I just got off the Skytrain I was on my way to Vancouver. While I was on it this guy gets on the train, he's all messed up. He looks pretty clean but he's definitely on drugs. First off he makes this weird gesture like he's just had GRS(gender reassignment surgery) and he sits down like he's in pain. I say that out of personal experience. He doesn't look like a trans woman though but he's talking like a girl............a robot girl. He then starts to feel the air surrounding the pole attached to his chair like it's permeating some sort of energy. He does this for the five minutes while he's on the train. When he gets to his stop he stands up, he hikes up his pants, like Erkal. He looks at me and says in his effeminate robo voice "what's your name?" He then proceeds to get off the train, salutes me and marches off. There was a terrible number of coincidences and parallels with my life.................it was like he had read everything I've posted online and found me and was mocking me. I felt like I was having a hallucination. Regardless the reality of the situation is that there are a lot of problems with people doing drugs in the lower mainland. I like to keep an open mind about certain issues. I like to think that one day science will be able to introduce new means to make certain cool things happen. This kind of mentality has led to so many psychotic break downs, drug induced schizophrenia, murders and a plethora of other nasties that these posts really are just dangerous. Although sweeping the topic under a rug is just as bad. Did you know that a major sign of schizophrenia is hallucinations of being the opposite sex? That one kind of hits home for me...........................

[Toadie]

I kind of feel really bad for having posted any reply at all to this. Even a light conversation about drug use can be so damaging. I just got off the Skytrain I was on my way to Vancouver. While I was on it this guy gets on the train, he's all messed up. He looks pretty clean but he's definitely on drugs. First off he makes this weird gesture like he's just had GRS(gender reassignment surgery) and he sits down like he's in pain. I say that out of personal experience. He doesn't look like a trans woman though but he's talking like a girl............a robot girl. He then starts to feel the air surrounding the pole attached to his chair like it's permeating some sort of energy. He does this for the five minutes while he's on the train. When he gets to his stop he stands up, he hikes up his pants, like Erkal. He looks at me and says in his effeminate robo voice "what's your name?" He then proceeds to get off the train, salutes me and marches off. There was a terrible number of coincidences and parallels with my life.................it was like he had read everything I've posted online and found me and was mocking me. I felt like I was having a hallucination. Regardless the reality of the situation is that there are a lot of problems with people doing drugs in the lower mainland. I like to keep an open mind about certain issues. I like to think that one day science will be able to introduce new means to make certain cool things happen. This kind of mentality has led to so many psychotic break downs, drug induced schizophrenia, murders and a plethora of other nasties that these posts really are just dangerous. Although sweeping the topic under a rug is just as bad. Did you know that a major sign of schizophrenia is hallucinations of being the opposite sex? That one kind of hits home for me...........................

 

Errmm.... Oh?

 

I must say I felt your first reply was a bit more relevant xD

[Xittenn]

They both are for different reasons. I'm assuming that being you've never used LSD you are unaware of the more significant mental halucinations which a person has when having consumed. You say visual but do you really understand that this is very much so a minor effect.........with exception to those occasions. I just thought you should know. Also a lot of 15 year olds want to know about these drugs and it's often because they want to try them...........well don't they suck...........no really! I know a guy who is spending 20 years in jail for a murder he commited on LSD and another who was involved who served 2..............I also think other individuals your age read these posts and see infrared vision and think cool.........but do they think it's cool that a bunch of thirty something guys have chemically induced schizophrenia and are walking around with freaking tiaras in their hair...........'cmon dude!

Edited March 3, 2009 by buttacup