The Bear's Key Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) ...Still? If not, which nation is the freest on Earth today? I don't mean in respect to businesses having freedoms equal to those of citizens.....the U.S. Declaration of Independence says "pursuit of happiness" -- yet I'm fairly certain most here can agree that's a little broad for our purpose here, compared to if they had written "and the pursuit of riches/wealth/power". So we're going only by Freedom of the Press, and of citizens. The less the press is owned by conglomerates, the more journalists can really print the truth in the widest-reaching media (i.e. internet) -- even if it's ugly -- and so the more free the media is. Rules Choose one nation. Please include the reasons why in your post. Yes (if not the U.S., choose one from below).....0 France ......................................................0 Switzerland.................................................0 Germany....................................................0 Japan........................................................0 Australia....................................................0 Somalia......................................................1 Netherlands.................................................1 Finland.......................................................1 other (full list of nations) If the nation you'd like to choose isn't listed, request it below and I'll update the list to reflect your vote. That is all. Edited February 26, 2009 by Phi for All
YT2095 Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 I voted No, based upon the post 11/9 Patriot Act. and although I don`t know which nation IS the freest (not an area of interest for me), I`m glad to be an Englishman that may posses and use Laboratory glassware freely without risk of a gaol sentence!
CaptainPanic Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 I think Europe, in general, is more free. But this is a change of the last years (US got worse, Europe got worse at a slower rate). This freedom does not have anything to do with the freedom to travel, but with the freedom to do and say whatever you want... Personally, I'm happy with my freedom in the Netherlands. I know however that it was even more free here about 20 years ago. The US has the largest percentage of prisoners in the world. That country, by the definition of "freedom", cannot be the most free. (Link 1, link 2 (wikipedia), link 3 (picture on wikipedia)).
Phi for All Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 So we're going only by Freedom of the Press, and of citizens.Then I'd say no to the US, and choose Finland. Finland has a broader media ownership base, including state sponsored outlets. I feel media deregulation has hurt the US in terms of trust in what is published. Finland has a better educated population overall, and they have a neutral foreign policy that keeps the emphasis away from military concerns.
Sisyphus Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 So is this strictly about freedom of the press? What are your criteria? Is it freer if there are no checks on reporting falsehoods? Is the self-censorship of large media companies even relevant if it’s not coerced by the state and anyone can still say whatever they want? Also, freedom “of citizens” is pretty much too vague to say anything about, especially since you’ve said you’re not talking about “pursuit of wealth.” I don’t understand why (or how) you’re excluding that, so I don’t know what you would include. So, just to be a pain in the ass: Somalia. There’s no rules at all! And certainly no media conglomerates...
Saryctos Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 I chose yes. Although the US is probably not the freeist to the letter of the law, I feel that the general populace and enforcement of laws offers a free(er) quality of life for people if they choose to live in that manner. Move outside of the big cities and you'll see just how useless many restrictive laws are. When I thought about moving to other countries for all their benefits I knew I would miss the free reign of "illegal" activity that occurs in my daily life. The blue law mentality of enforcement on so many laws is what makes the US feel like it entertains the most freedoms for me.
Mokele Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 I'm with Sisyphus - it's too vague and poorly defined for any sort of meaningful conclusion. What freedoms are essential and what aren't? What matters most? Least? What even counts as a freedom? Are we using laws to measure, or the resulting scope of behavior (since not all laws are enforced)? It's like asking "What's the best animal?" without defining anything else - the results will be meaningless gibberish.
npts2020 Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 I voted yes. It is probably easier to get away with a crime in America than anywhere else that has an effective (somewhat) government. On the other hand more things are illegal to make more citizens criminals......maybe i shoulda voted no:doh:
ParanoiA Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 America loves its prisoners. Enjoys casting judgement on others and institutionalizing those judgements into laws. That's why we have slavery to live down for the forseeable future, among others. And we haven't learned a damn thing from it. We still cast judgement and institutionalize those subjectivisms into laws - prostitution, gambling, drugs and etc. Freedom in the business of information exchange is a speciously symbiotic barometer of freedom in general. Sure, freedom of the press is generally coveted, but I don't find that particular capitalist business liberty to indicate much beyond the freedom to talk. Look here, we can talk all we want and disparage the president on TV, but we can't by pharmaceuticals from Canada and I can't by pseudoephedrine without an ID. Oh, I can jump out of an airplane with a specialty umbrella, but I can't smoke a joint in my garage. Freedom to pursue the news business is cute, but I'm not sure what kind of gauge that really is.
The Bear's Key Posted February 25, 2009 Author Posted February 25, 2009 Arrg! I can't edit the first post. I'll just update like this. Hopefully a mod will copy and paste it into the first post Yes (if not the U.S., choose one from below).....2 Somalia......................................................1(?) Netherlands.................................................1(?) Finland.......................................................1 (Sisyphus, I'll allow you change from Somalia) So is this strictly about freedom of the press? What are your criteria? Is it freer if there are no checks on reporting falsehoods? No and no. Also, freedom “of citizens” is pretty much too vague to say anything about, especially since you’ve said you’re not talking about “pursuit of wealth.” I don’t understand why (or how) you’re excluding that, so I don’t know what you would include. I'm with Sisyphus - it's too vague and poorly defined for any sort of meaningful conclusion. What freedoms are essential and what aren't? What matters most? Least? What even counts as a freedom? I left it up to your personal opinion (what citizens' freedom means), which is the reason I asked you give a reason for your choice. Freedom to pursue the news business is cute, but I'm not sure what kind of gauge that really is. I meant from the vantage point of the media. Are they completely free to report on their corporate parents, or government wrongdoing/abuse? Has Freedom of the Press been lived up to?
Mokele Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 I left it up to your personal opinion (what citizens' freedom means), which is the reason I asked you give a reason for your choice. Fantastic, but without any sort of external criteria, there's going to be no consistency and nothing informative. Why even bother keeping track of people's answers, if the answers can't be meaningfully compared?
The Bear's Key Posted February 25, 2009 Author Posted February 25, 2009 Fantastic, but without any sort of external criteria, there's going to be no consistency and nothing informative. Why even bother keeping track of people's answers, if the answers can't be meaningfully compared? If you have any suggestions, I'll welcome them. For now, consider it a test of how many people feel that we still have what our forefathers envisioned as freedom. In that light, defining is unecessary. It's more like saying: do you feel free (more than all other nations?) Or if you're not from the U.S., do you feel that it's the most free? Do you think the Press is also free (as envisioned by U.S. forefathers)?
Sisyphus Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 Why would I change my answer from Somalia? Where else on Earth can I pursue a life of piracy unmolested?
The Bear's Key Posted February 25, 2009 Author Posted February 25, 2009 Why would I change my answer from Somalia? Where else on Earth can I pursue a life of piracy unmolested? If you really feel that Somalia has the level of freedoms as envisioned by our (the U.S.) forefathers, then say it and I'll remove the question mark. But I think you understood what I meant.
Sisyphus Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 If you really feel that Somalia has the level of freedoms as envisioned by our (the U.S.) forefathers, then say it and I'll remove the question mark. But I think you understood what I meant. No, they were envisioning something else entirely. But sure, when the U.S. founding fathers talked about freedom, they meant freedom from tyranny. So in that sense, yeah, Somalia (which has no functioning government) is indeed a quite a bit freer. Of course, they never wanted that kind of anarchy, because they weren't morons. And no, I don't know what you meant, which was the point I was trying to make.
DrDNA Posted February 25, 2009 Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) There are probably quite a few countries that offer more freedoms than the US.....if you have enough cash. For example, if I have enough money, I can do just about anything I darn near please in Nigeria. If I am a member of a small group of wealthy families, or a drug lord, the same goes for Mexico. Although it is not perfect by any means, I believe that the US offers more constitutionally endowed freedoms; regardless of class/ability to pay bribes. The ability to partake in the art of piracy (Somalia), eat live monkey brains (Thailand), sleep with minors (Vietnam) or do heroine/smoke hash/choose prostitutes from store front windows (ie, Netherlands) not withstanding.... Edited February 25, 2009 by DrDNA
The Bear's Key Posted February 25, 2009 Author Posted February 25, 2009 No, they were envisioning something else entirely. But sure, when the U.S. founding fathers talked about freedom, they meant freedom from tyranny. So in that sense, yeah, Somalia (which has no functioning government) is indeed a quite a bit freer. Of course, they never wanted that kind of anarchy, because they weren't morons. Do you really think everyone needs a history lesson spelled out? I thought people would already know our forefathers wanted: 1) a government, 2) freedom from tyranny, 3) a bill of rights, 4) granted freedom to the Press, and 5) granted freedom to citizens -- more powerful than special interests and/or parties. And no, I don't know what you meant, which was the point I was trying to make. I thought you did, because of the statement quoted below. So, just to be a pain in the ass: Somalia.
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