Casimir effect and gravity

[elas]

alright the Casimir is proven that light travels faster in an absence of matter faster than the universal constant of V so assume you have you have a three km long chamber encasing an electromagnetic field and you could accelerate an object to the speed of light then you removed the electromagnetic

field and it broke the glass at this point it is traveling at more than the speed of light which is against the laws of physics because it wasn't always traveling faster than light would it dilate at an equal rate to its declaration or will it

simply continue to move faster than light ?

 

The laws of physics include the statement that space has a minimum energy level; the speed of light in a vacuum is calculated on the basis of experiments where 'absolute vacuum' still has that minimum energy level.

The speed of light in a gap subject to the Casimir effect is slightly faster because the particle that carries the minimum energy (graviton) cannot enter the gap in its entirety, therefore the gap has a slightly greater vacuum force than the so-called absolute vacuum of 'empty' space.

 

That is to say that the Scharnhorst effect is not against the Laws of Physics but, it does call for a slight adjustment to the current definition of 'absolute vacuum'.

 

It is also pertinent to note that movement caused by the Casimir effect has only been observed in experiments where the plates are in a vertical position. It is therefore possible that the movement is a gravitational effect caused by the difference in gravitational force between the top and bottom of the plates.

[swansont]

It is therefore possible that the movement is a gravitational effect caused by the difference in gravitational force between the top and bottom of the plates.

 

The Casimir effect is adequately explained by QED. There is no basis for thinking that gravity is responsible.

[YT2095]

Elas, Leave gravity out of this and stick to the Known Facts! We`d really rather not have to move Another thread Pseudoscience and Speculations because of you.

 

thanks.

[elas]

Elas, Leave gravity out of this and stick to the Known Facts! We`d really rather not have to move Another thread Pseudoscience and Speculations because of you.

 

thanks.

 

extract from:

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/9747

New physics

The Casimir effect could also play a role in accurate force measurements between the nanometre and micrometre scales. Newton's inverse-square law of gravitation has been tested many times at macroscopic distances by observing the motion of planets. But no-one has so far managed to verify the law at micron length scales with any great precision.

 

Extract from:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-the-casimir-effect

One of the most interesting aspects of vacuum energy (with or without mirrors) is that, calculated in quantum field theory, it is infinite! To some, this finding implies that the vacuum of space could be an enormous source of energy--called "zero point energy."

But the finding also raises a physical problem: there's nothing to stop arbitrarily small waves from fitting between two mirrors, and there is an infinite number of these wavelengths. The mathematical solution is to temporarily do the calculation for a finite number of waves for two different separations of the mirrors, find the associated difference in vacuum energies and then argue that the difference remains finite as one allows the number of wavelengths to go to infinity.

Although this trick works, and gives answers in agreement with experiment, the problem of an infinite vacuum energy is a serious one. Einstein's theory of gravitation implies that this energy must produce an infinite gravitational curvature of spacetime--something we most definitely do not observe. The resolution of this problem is still an open research question.

 

 

I assume that 'the law' referred to is the gravitation law; but, as I have already proposed a solution that explains why curvature is not observed; I will, as requested; leave further comment to the 'tricks' department.

Edited February 27, 2009 by elas

[swansont]

There's nothing in those excerpts which implies that gravity is in any way responsible for the Casimir force.

 

Also, your sciam link leads me to a "page not found"

[elas]

'Spellcheck' added a 't', the correct address is:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-the-casimir-effec

 

Currently we do not have an explanation of the cause of the Casimir effect that accounts for the absence of curvature. My point is that where there are no gravitons there is no gravitation curvature. The gravitons are replace with an increase in photonic matter, hence the abundance of waves.

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There's nothing in those excerpts which implies that gravity is in any way responsible for the Casimir force.

 

Also, your sciam link leads me to a "page not found"

 

'Spellcheck' added a 't', the correct address is:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-the-casimir-effec

 

Currently we do not have an explanation of the cause of the Casimir effect that accounts for the absence of curvature. My point is that where there are no gravitons there is no gravitation curvature. The gravitons are replace with an increase in photonic matter, hence the abundance of waves.

[swansont]

Currently we do not have an explanation of the cause of the Casimir effect that accounts for the absence of curvature. My point is that where there are no gravitons there is no gravitation curvature. The gravitons are replace with an increase in photonic matter, hence the abundance of waves.

 

The infinity in the vacuum energy is present everywhere. It's an issue in reconciling all of QM with GR. It is not specific to the Casimir effect.

[elas]

The infinity in the vacuum energy is present everywhere. It's an issue in reconciling all of QM with GR. It is not specific to the Casimir effect.

 

Please take into account the full intent of the authors:

 

What is the Casimir effect?

 

Northeastern University experimental particle physicists Stephen Reucroft and John Swain put their heads together to write the following answer.

 

‘To understand the Casimir Effect, one first has to understand something about a vacuum in space as it is viewed in quantum field theory’

 

‘One of the most interesting aspects of vacuum energy (with or without mirrors) is that, calculated in quantum field theory, it is infinite! To some, this finding implies that the vacuum of space could be an enormous source of energy--called "zero point energy."

 

‘But the finding also raises a physical problem: there's nothing to stop arbitrarily small waves from fitting between two mirrors, and there is an infinite number of these wavelengths. The mathematical solution is to temporarily do the calculation for a finite number of waves for two different separations of the mirrors, find the associated difference in vacuum energies and then argue that the difference remains finite as one allows the number of wavelengths to go to infinity’.

 

‘Although this trick works, and gives answers in agreement with experiment, the problem of an infinite vacuum energy is a serious one. Einstein's theory of gravitation implies that this energy must produce an infinite gravitational curvature of spacetime--something we most definitely do not observe. The resolution of this problem is still an open research question’.

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Elas, Leave gravity out of this and stick to the Known Facts! We`d really rather not have to move Another thread Pseudoscience and Speculations because of you.

thanks.

 

I am saddened to see that this thread has ended up where you feared but, that said; the Known Facts are as stated by Reucroft and Swain as quoted in my reply to swansont.

[swansont]

‘One of the most interesting aspects of vacuum energy (with or without mirrors)

 

with or without mirrors means this it's present everywhere. No mirrors = no Casimir effect, and yet they confirm that the vacuum energy is infinite. That's why it's a very interesting conundrum: the exclusion of some of the vacuum energy causes an observable effect, and yet the infinite value of it does not cause infinite curvature in GR.

 

However, what is does NOT say, or even imply, is that gravity is the cause of the Casimir effect. Nothing you have quoted implies that gravity is responsible. Your insistence that it is is why this has been put in Speculations.

 

If you can provide any support that gravity is responsible, do so. Otherwise, the thread will be closed.

[elas]

with or without mirrors means this it's present everywhere. No mirrors = no Casimir effect, and yet they confirm that the vacuum energy is infinite. That's why it's a very interesting conundrum: the exclusion of some of the vacuum energy causes an observable effect, and yet the infinite value of it does not cause infinite curvature in GR.

 

However, what is does NOT say, or even imply, is that gravity is the cause of the Casimir effect. Nothing you have quoted implies that gravity is responsible. Your insistence that it is is why this has been put in Speculations.

 

If you can provide any support that gravity is responsible, do so. Otherwise, the thread will be closed.

 

At no point have I said that gravity is responsible. I gave two quotes to support the suggestion that it is the absence of gravitons that creates the vacuum in which the Casimir effect appears; the quote that is being ignored is the one that points to the absence of gravitons, the second quote deals with the effect of the absence of gravitation. But, as no one bothers with threads transferred to speculations I see no point in spending time on keep the thread open.

[swansont]

At no point have I said that gravity is responsible.

 

Ummm …

 

It is also pertinent to note that movement caused by the Casimir effect has only been observed in experiments where the plates are in a vertical position. It is therefore possible that the movement is a gravitational effect caused by the difference in gravitational force between the top and bottom of the plates.

(emphasis added)

 

So, you most certainly did state that gravity could be responsible.

 

I gave two quotes to support the suggestion that it is the absence of gravitons that creates the vacuum in which the Casimir effect appears; the quote that is being ignored is the one that points to the absence of gravitons, the second quote deals with the effect of the absence of gravitation.

 

That's not what the quotes say, and that's not what the theory says. You are seriously confused of you think otherwise.

 

But, as no one bothers with threads transferred to speculations I see no point in spending time on keep the thread open.

 

Yes, it's a cadre of monkeys typing on keyboards that keep posting to speculations.

[elas]

 

It is also pertinent to note that movement caused by the Casimir effect has only been observed in experiments where the plates are in a vertical position. It is therefore possible that the movement is a gravitational effect caused by the difference in gravitational force between the top and bottom of the plates.

 

(emphasis added)

 

So, you most certainly did state that gravity could be responsible.

 

.

 

There is a difference between top and bottom of the gap and in the gap. There is also a difference between movement and force. The Casimir force is confined in the gap. There is an observed movement around the plates. I most certainly did say the absence of gravitons is responsible. But, on reflection I could have worded it better by saying above and below. Neither perfectly conveys the actuality which is that vacuum draws in part of a graviton at top an bottom.

 

The whole is the same effect as a FQHE experiment with gravity replacing electromagnet force and the force direction reversed (i.e. gravity pulling outwards in stead of magnetic compression). The force at right angle to gravity, being expanded at right angle to its line of force;(replacing the compressed particles in FQHE), is of course; the Casimir force.

 

Nature is a repetition of simple construction modules.

Edited March 2, 2009 by elas

[swansont]

There is a difference between top and bottom of the gap and in the gap. There is also a difference between movement and force. The Casimir force is confined in the gap. There is an observed movement around the plates. I most certainly did say the absence of gravitons is responsible. But, on reflection I could have worded it better by saying above and below. Neither perfectly conveys the actuality which is that vacuum draws in part of a graviton at top an bottom.

 

The Casimir force is due to the Electromagnetic boundary conditions present in the plates. The modifications from those boundary conditions explain not only the Casimir force but also other cavity QED effects, like the suppression or enhancement of radiative decay rates which are Electromagnetic interactions.

 

Gravity does not enter the picture in the explanation of any of these experiments, your assertions notwithstanding. Gravitons are not subject to the electromagnetic boundary conditions, so there is no basis for claiming that gravitons would be excluded from the region.

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A point to ponder: gravity is an exclusively attractive force. If you could somehow exclude gravitons, the attraction would get weaker, not stronger.

[elas]

The Casimir force is due to the Electromagnetic boundary conditions present in the plates. The modifications from those boundary conditions explain not only the Casimir force but also other cavity QED effects, like the suppression or enhancement of radiative decay rates which are Electromagnetic interactions.

 

Gravity does not enter the picture in the explanation of any of these experiments, your assertions notwithstanding. Gravitons are not subject to the electromagnetic boundary conditions, so there is no basis for claiming that gravitons would be excluded from the region.

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A point to ponder: gravity is an exclusively attractive force. If you could somehow exclude gravitons, the attraction would get weaker, not stronger.

 

It would appear that those darn professionals have beaten me to it:

 

http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/09/darpa-seeks-to-use-force-casimir-force.html

http://www.stanford.edu/group/kgb/Research/gravity2.html

http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/19232/1/98-0519.pdf

http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0295-5075/67/4/517

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200707/000020070707A0148564.php

[swansont]

Your first link says "Casimir force is the result of virtual particles and could be related to inertia and gravity." but the included link says "SPECULATIVE CONNECTION TO INERTIAL AND GRAVITATIONAL MASS"

 

That's mass, not gravity, and they admit that it's speculative. Your first link was doing a poor job of summarizing.

 

Your second link says "Our simple goal: to measure gravity at varying distances and see if the scaling deviates from 1/r2 on small length scales."

 

They are proposing to use the Casimir force to measure gravity at small distances, which is also what your third, fourth and fifth links were doing. One of them was measuring G, while three were looking for deviations from 1/r^2 behavior. This is waaaaay different than saying that gravity is responsible for the Casimir force.

 

You can't just search for articles that contain "Casimir" and "gravity" and credulously assume they are saying that gravity is responsible. You have to actually read and comprehend them.

[elas]

What I am trying to say is, that as in FQHE; there are two forces acting at right angle to each other (gravity in green, wave force in purple; plates outlined in red) that is why they are mathematically related. The difference between the compression created when gravity is forced around the outside of the plates and the resistance to compression provided by the wave force is the cause of both Casimir positive and negative forces. FQHE is described as creating an atom of electrons; likewise the Casimir effect creates an atom of photons. But I have left it to late to make my point. The audience has exited long ago.

Edited March 2, 2009 by elas

[Sayonara]

Elas' note to self: Point comes first.

[swansont]

— OR —

 

The Casimir force acts just as advertised. Theory is confirmed by experiment. Theory is built upon other theory, also confirmed by experiment.

 

 

All you offer is hand-waving. Why would anyone pick the hand-waving?

[elas]

— OR —

 

The Casimir force acts just as advertised. Theory is confirmed by experiment. Theory is built upon other theory, also confirmed by experiment.

 

 

All you offer is hand-waving. Why would anyone pick the hand-waving?

 

As we are clearly nearing the end of this debate, I should like to make a carefully considered reply to your question; however, my landlady has picked this moment to carry out major improvements to my abode, so I would appreciate your leaving this thread open for a little longer than usual so that I can write a reply during quiet moments. (The building work is expected to take about one month).

Edited March 3, 2009 by elas

[Styrge]

Graviton is not well known enough to determine not to be subjected to boundary conditions. Like infinite virtual energy phenomenon shouldn't be subjected to scale but it seems to do so... Anything new can't appear without some radicality. As this thread was moved to a section to encourage speculation, here comes Casimir as a fundamental phenomenon in the universe:

 

It could be the other way around that Casimir force is responsible for gravity. Graviton would be a special case of photon with an infinite wavelength. Then we need to explain a photon, which kind of particle it would be, as a micromechanical device: a pair of electrons work as mirrors and are bound together by the Casimir effect.

 

No gravitational spacetime curvature is observed and so there is not even TIME inside the Casimir pair called firoton. (This also explains Cooper pair behaviour; how electron pairs turn into bosons and claim other photon characteristics.) Then speed of light is simply determined by background density like for a bubble in water, speed is determined by medium not the object, and the energy would equal the spinning frequency.

 

And why electron would be the universal particle altought anything would survive in a timeless bubble... this is the same queastion as why photons never produce pairs other than electron with it's counterpart.

[swansont]

While this section is the appropriate place to discuss speculative science, that does not mean that you can ignore other considerations like thread hijacking — if you have your own speculations concerning the Casimir force and/or gravity, you need to start a new thread on it. This particular discussion is about elas's speculation.

[Sayonara]

As we are clearly nearing the end of this debate, I should like to make a carefully considered reply to your question; however, my landlady has picked this moment to carry out major improvements to my abode, so I would appreciate your leaving this thread open for a little longer than usual so that I can write a reply during quiet moments. (The building work is expected to take about one month).

Maybe you should use the opportunity to spend a great deal more time in your local library.

[froarty]

Please take into account the full intent of the authors:

 

‘One of the most interesting aspects of vacuum energy (with or without mirrors) is that, calculated in quantum field theory, it is infinite! To some, this finding implies that the vacuum of space could be an enormous source of energy--called "zero point energy."

 

 

I had afriend enlighten me re QED vs Casimir force and beyond the arguments of not needing virtual particles and electrical attraction induced he also mentioned something called "upconverting" the vacuum flux VS Casimir theory restricting the longer waves. Didn't seem relevant to me at the time but both theories agreed that braced casimir plates form a permanent exclusion field so I moved on... Later I found a paper by Jan Naudts "On the hydrino state of the relativistic hydrogen atom" which is just a hydrogen atom in a Casimir exclusion field. He implied that a Casimir cavity is to our plane what our plane is to an event horizon and from the perspective of the exclusion field things slipping into our plane slow down similar to what we are told will happen to an object falling from our plane into an event horizon. This relativistic perspective suddenly took me back to the "upconverting" hint I was given previously. From our perspective things inside a Casimir field keep getting faster as the plates get closer and wavelengths would appear to get shorter - from inside the cavity however the waves are unchanged relative to each other but space-time twists -widens on the temporal axis. I guess if it could twist a full 90 degrees the flucuations would become instantaneous relative to us or from their perspective we would be at a dead stop.

Edited March 14, 2009 by swansont
fix quote tag