The kinds of people we're dealing with...

[fafalone]

WARNING: This link points to the video aired on Arab television of the beheading of Nick Berg. It's very graphic and disturbing. If this bothers you, do not continue.

 

http://www.mancow.com/Videos/nick%20berg%20beheading%20video%20-%20Warning%20-%20Graphic!.wmv

 

...so remind us again why we shouldn't be hunting these people down before they do something like this?

[Sayonara]

Yeah, nice logic there.

 

 

[edit]

 

Berg father backs anti-war stance

 

The hooded men who carried out the killing claimed they were avenging the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

 

"That violence was originally perpetrated by the American government, the British government and by the military and the only way to end the cycle of violence is for the US and British troops to come out immediately."

 

 

I wonder what Mr Berg would think of you using video of his son's untimely demise to spread a message of hate.

[admiral_ju00]

bleh it's not THAT graphic.

 

on the other hand, i was all for the notion of us or uk turning Iraq into a Radiation filled Glass wasteland.

[Tesseract]

WARNING: This link points to the video aired on Arab television of the beheading of Nick Berg. It's very graphic and disturbing. If this bothers you' date=' do not continue.[/color']

QUOTE]

 

This is graphic, sometimes I cant believe things that people put on the internet.Anyway your making generalizations about the people in Iraq.

[admiral_ju00]

WARNING: This link points to the video aired on Arab television of the beheading of Nick Berg. It's very graphic and disturbing. If this bothers you' date=' do not continue.[/color']

QUOTE]

 

This is graphic, sometimes I cant believe things that people put on the internet.

 

I've seen much, much worse.

 

Anyway your making generalizations about the people in Iraq

 

You being in the military, should of all people know that this war has gone far too long. Suddam is now gone(politically), but we have another nimrod to deal with, and after him, who knows how many will replace him.......

[atinymonkey]

...so remind us again why we shouldn't be hunting these people down before they do something like this?

 

Because we have spent the last year torturing and slaughtering the friends and family of the executioners. To expect people to lie back and accept aggressive military occupation would be the antipathies of the American idea of independence. The colonists did far worse to the British during the war of independence, and are (probably justifiably) recorded as heroes.

 

The people who committed that act have been arrested, they are not symbolic of an entire nation. There is absolutely no case for damming an entire nation based on the actions of 5 men.

[Glider]

...so remind us again why we shouldn't be hunting these people down before they do something like this?

 

Due process?

 

You can't hunt down people before they do something like this, because before they have done anything, they are innocent. This is a fundamental part of the law that the troops are out there trying to establish (allegedly).

 

If you think it's only Iraqis who are capable of such brutality, you should hang around an A&E (ER) department on a Friday and Saturday night, see what Americans and Brits are doing to each other these days.

[blike]

I wonder what Mr Berg would think of you using video of his son's untimely demise to spread a message of hate.

Hah, this is Mr. Berg we're talking about here. He's more responsible than anyone for politicizing his son's death. He outright directly blamed bush (even though his son was voluntarily over there), and then went on to say that the terrorists "didn't know what they were doing" and "killed their best friend".

 

Disguisting.

 

I don't think the video is really a justification for anything. It should just serve as a reminder of what kind of people we are dealing with here, and what sort of double standard they hold us to.

[Sayonara]

I don't think the video is really a justification for anything. It should just serve as a reminder of what kind of people we are dealing with here, and what sort of double standard they hold us to.

Is anyone going to define what this "kind of people we are dealing with" means? Because if 'here' is the USA I'm guessing you don't mean Iraqis who are threatening you with decapitation.

[blike]

"here" is referring to middle east and people is referring to terrorists and/or extreme islamic fundamentalists. The sort of people who decapitate a random person simply because he is American, not your average joe muslim.

[Sayonara]

"here" is referring to middle east and people is referring to terrorists and/or extreme islamic fundamentalists. The sort of people who decapitate a random person simply because he is American, not your average joe muslim.

Errr... he was decapitated after the images of appalling conditions for Iraqis in an American-run jail, and allegations of similar abuse carried out by British troops. Which incidentally came after our forces invading their country, deposing their leaders, and killing civilians.

And regardless of whether he volunteered or not, he was a combatant. And - by virtue of the USA declaring it's war to be "on terror" - so were they.

[atinymonkey]

Hah' date=' this is Mr. Berg we're talking about here. He's more responsible than anyone for politicizing his son's death. He outright directly blamed bush (even though his son was voluntarily over there), and then went on to say that the terrorists "didn't know what they were doing" and "killed their best friend".

 

Disguisting.[/quote']

 

Hang on, the guy's son is publicly executed and he comes out of his mourning to try and prevent his son being used to propagate a war he didn't believe in. Nick Berg was opposed to the war, his Father pointed that out when the US government wheeled on the story to deflect from the atrocities committed in Iraq prisons. He took offence at the use of his son as a political gambit to propagate war. Your saying it's not his right to protect his sons memory?

 

I don't agree. He has every right to stop the government prostituting his sons life for the sake of political dogma, points in the election poll and lining the Bush families pocket with more oil money. A human life should be no mans bargaining chip.

 

The sooner the general public links the word Iraq with Vietnam or Somalia, the better. Just because less western solders are being killed does not lessen the impact of the loss of life. It doesn't matter if you were born in Alabama or Iran, a life cannot be allocated any less or greater worth than another.

 

 

 

That's my mind on the events, anyhow.

[blike]

Errr... he was decapitated after the images of appalling conditions for Iraqis in an American-run jail

That runs along the same lines as justifying invading Iraq for 9/11. They may not have been related to the actual event, but they sure as hell were punished for it. You can't reconcile it that way. Nick Berg wasn't involved with prisoner abuse...citing his death as retaliation for prisoner abuse is essentially trying to excuse cold-blooded murder. The only connection between Nick Burg and the abused prisoners is his nationality. It wouldn't be very fair if we started executed muslims in the country after 9/11.

 

He also was not a combatant. He worked for communications and was an American civilian reinstalling communications towers that had been destroyed during the attacks.

[blike]

Hang on' date=' the guy's son is publicly executed and he comes out of his mourning to try and prevent his son being used to propagate a war he didn't believe in. Nick Berg was opposed to the war, his Father pointed that out when the US government wheeled on the story to deflect from the atrocities committed in Iraq prisons. He took offence at the use of his son as a political gambit to propagate war. Your saying it's not his right to protect his sons memory?

 

I don't agree. He has every right to stop the government prostituting his sons life for the sake of political dogma...[/quote']Firstly, I don't recall the US Government making anything of the execution. I can't recall anything the US government said. Quotes please. US Media made a big stink about it, but that was about it.

 

Nick Berg's father didn't stop the government from prostituting his son's execution. I think he clearly used it to promote his own agenda.

 

"My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. This administration did this," Berg said.

 

"I am sure that he only saw the good in his captors until the last second of his life," Berg said. "They did not know what they were doing. They killed their best friend."

 

 

EDIT: Toned it down a bit

[Sayonara]

That runs along the same lines as justifying invading Iraq for 9/11. They may not have been related to the actual event, but they sure as hell were punished for it. You can't reconcile it that way. Nick Berg wasn't involved with prisoner abuse...citing his death as retaliation for prisoner abuse is essentially trying to excuse cold-blooded murder. The only connection between Nick Burg and the abused prisoners is his nationality. It wouldn't be very fair if we started executed muslims in the country after 9/11.

No, I'm not making an attempt to reconcile or justify those abhorrent actions in any way.

 

What I'm saying is that it's not like they just ran up to someone at random and chopped his head off for a laugh.

 

He also was not a combatant. He worked for communications and was an American civilian reinstalling communications towers that had been destroyed during the attacks.

When the US or the UK kills such people working for the other side, we call them combatants.

[atinymonkey]

Firstly' date=' I don't recall the US Government making anything of the execution. I can't recall anything the US government said. Quotes please. US Media made a big stink about it, but that was about it.

[/quote']

 

In decending order of the severity and weight in the propaganda:-

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/12/iraq.berg/

 

$10 million offered by US government for the capture of the criminals.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/11/iraq/main616842.shtml

 

Bush's minon of evil (Or Secretary of State Colin Powell, you know, whatever) drumming up support for his overlord.

 

http://www.federalnewsradio.com/index.php?nid=78&sid=12789

 

Mr Bush, in a radio address, using Nicholas Berg as his political pawn.

 

It comes down to your interpretation of events, and your political opinion. Personally, I do think there is an aspect of patriotism clouding conclusions, anyone who doubts the political regime from within the US is classed an evil outcast. However, that’s just my opinion, and that’s all it is.

[blike]

Ah, thanks. I still don't think the government necessarily used it to advance their idea of a war in Iraq. I can't find a quote thats not particularly true.

 

Hang on, the guy's son is publicly executed and he comes out of his mourning to try and prevent his son being used to propagate a war he didn't believe in.

"The U.S. government is committed to a very thorough and robust investigation to get to the bottom of this," Dan Senor, spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, told reporters in Baghdad.

 

President Bush said "there is no justification" for the murder of the 26-year-old Pennsylvania man that was shown in video on an al Qaeda-linked Web site.

 

Iraqi Human Rights Minister Bakhtiar Amin said Iraq would do everything within its power to bring Berg's killers to justice.

 

Not exactly the war-machining propaganda I had expected. The only thing in that article which carries opinion seems to be:

 

"The actions of the terrorists who executed this man remind us of the nature of a few people who want to stop the advance of freedom in Iraq," Bush said.

 

"Their intention is to shake our will. Their intention is to shake our confidence. Yet by their actions they remind us of how desperately parts of the world need free societies and peaceful societies."

 

 

Whether or not those are their intentions I cannot say. I do agree that this does remind us of the nature of the enemy.

 

Powell, the minion of evil, mentions the double standard to which we're held (which I referred to earlier) in that the rest of the world froths at the mouth for the actions of a small number of our marines, whereas they keep telling us "not to judge them by their extremists". Powell was holding them to this by calling for the denouncing of the act. Powell then quickly goes on and talks about our failures and mistakes. Propaganda in action?

 

He also pledged action against American military prison guards and perhaps others responsible for prisoner abuses in Iraq that have drawn worldwide condemnation.

"People are disappointed in the United States," Powell said. He added, "Justice will be done."

 

---------------------------------

 

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush is focusing on the killers in Iraq who beheaded American civilian Nicholas Berg, insisting they must be hunted down as part of a strategy ultimately designed to bring peace to the U.S.-occupied country.

 

"We must confront the enemy and stay on the offensive until these killers are defeated," Bush said in his weekly radio address, as he sought to shift the focus from the abuse of some Iraqi prisoners by American troops.

 

Is their a problem with insisting that they be hunted down and defeated?

 

I don't really see any evidence of the government using berg's death to justify/promote/propagate a war in iraq.

[blike]

I guess it's all how you interpret it

 

As long as you interpret it my way its all good

[Tesseract]

I've seen much' date=' much worse.

 

 

 

You being in the military, should of all people know that this war has gone far too long. Suddam is now gone(politically), but we have another nimrod to deal with, and after him, who knows how many will replace him.......[/quote']

 

Im not in the military.

[fafalone]

Due process?

 

You can't hunt down people before they do something like this' date=' because before they have done anything, they are innocent.[/quote']

 

 

So if I write a letter to the president saying I'm going to kill him, I won't go to jail?

 

They're members of organizations with avowed desires to murder civilians.

[Sayonara]

So if I write a letter to the president saying I'm going to kill him' date=' I won't go to jail?

 

They're members of organizations with avowed desires to murder civilians.[/quote']

Correction... you won't go to Guantanamo Bay without any trial to be held for an undefined period of time.

 

Well, actually you probably would under the current administration

Don't do it faf!

[-Demosthenes-]

Those men will spend eternity in Fiery Hell.

[Tesseract]

Those men will spend eternity in Fiery Hell.

 

What men are you talking about?

[-Demosthenes-]

I didn't read any of the posts except the first couple. Someone said the video wasn't so bad.

bleh it's not THAT graphic.

 

on the other hand, i was all for the notion of us or uk turning Iraq into a Radiation filled Glass wasteland.

I saw it and I thought that all it was was these people talking ina different lauguage and they had a prisoner and they were asking for ransom or something. But then I saw the rest of it, I didn't read any more of the posts I just posted my post and turned off the computer and tryed watching cartoons so I could forget what I saw. The truth is, I'll never forget.

[Glider]

I know what you mean. I've seen people die violently on a few occasions. It always disturbed me deeply and it never got easier. I hope it never gets easier. It shouldn't ever be easy to watch somebody killed (the method is irrelevant).

 

I think that for people to able to watch such a death and remain unaffected by it is very telling. I think it's evidence of an increasingly brutalized and brutal society in which people are becoming desensitised and increasingly incapable of putting themselves in the position, or taking the perspective of another.

 

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's what we're really like and we've just become self-deluded by the thin veneer of civilization and self-righteousness we've adopted to convince ourselves of our moral superiority.

 

In any event, the popularity of the spectacle of violent death over the last two thousand years, from the time of the gladiators to public executions, to sharing video footage of it over the internet, suggests that for all our alleged 'progress', we haven't come very far.