The kinds of people we're dealing with...

[Skye]

Isn't that the point of invading a country? It's not like we booked 150,000 sight-seeing tours. Go in, take their stuff, kill people that stop you.

[Sayonara]

Well yes.

 

The fact that this is morally objectionable seems to escape some people.

[Tesseract]

now Bush wants another exemtion (sp) from the UN so that he cant be tried against crimes of humanity.

 

Actually i dont see how bush was allowed to invade Iraq in the first place, the resolution made after the Gulf war said that if Iraq were ever to breach the cease-fire or the resolution that there would have to be a meeting to decide what they were going to do.

 

I forgot the name of the agreements that I talked about any help?

[Tesseract]

The video isnt very gorey,or up close and it dosnt have a good picture either.But is still chilling.

Still one life didnt stop other soldiers for continuing with the tortures.

[blike]

I think atm was more referring to the fact that if a civilian defends their home/property/town etc from US or UK troops, they are treated as combatants.

 

Defend them from what? We aren't exactly pillaging their homes, raping their women, and stealing their food. Mayhaps their have been some isolated cases, but it's not the norm.

 

The military has two rules for Iraqi citizens:

 

Don't be out after curfew.

Don't shoot at coalition soldiers.

 

Even if that's not true, the basic reason for the invasion was to get the oil (8% of the worlds supply) which economists link with the trillions of dollar debt in the US treasury.

 

Why didn't we just lift sanctions? Would have saved us $100 billion.

[Tesseract]

What do you mean defend them from what, its a war.More specifically an invasion.

[blike]

Actually i dont see how bush was allowed to invade Iraq in the first place, the resolution made after the Gulf war said that if Iraq were ever to breach the cease-fire or the resolution that there would have to be a meeting to decide what they were going to do.

Saddam has been in violation of the cease-fire and resolution for a long, long time. The UN handed down several resolutions but Iraq responded by kicking weapons inspectors out of the country (who concluded Iraq was not complying with resolutions). I think the UN had plenty of time, but the oil for food funds were too enticing

[Tesseract]

You dont understand, it said that if Iraq was to break the agreement there would have to be a meeting of two different organization in the Un (god damn forgot the names) to decide furthur actions.It didnt say anywhere that the US had to invade Iraq because they though Saddam had WMDs.

[Tesseract]

Dont act like civilians werent killed,hurt or abused.I remeber that, at least 10 days before the invasion the US pounded the capital (that included the most civilians) with tomahawks.

[blike]

You dont understand, it said that if Iraq was to break the agreement there would have to be a meeting of two different organization in the Un (god damn forgot the names) to decide furthur actions.It didnt say anywhere that the US had to invade Iraq because they though Saddam had WMDs.

No, you don't understand. Iraq broke the agreement many times. The UN paid nothing but lip service to Iraq.

[blike]

Dont act like civilians werent killed,hurt or abused.I remeber that, at least 10 days before the invasion the US pounded the capital (that included the most civilians) with tomahawks.

 

You're right. Many civilians were killed in inital attacks.

 

What I'm saying is that US Troops are not patrolling around right now looking for innocent people to kill. Iraqi citizens don't have to "defend themselves" from anything. If they want to be left in peace: Don't wander the streets at night, and don't fire at US troops.

 

It's quite simple really.

[Tesseract]

I still dont understand the part where the US comes into Iraq.They are part of the fafing UN how the hell can they just invade a country.

[Sayonara]

Defend them from what? We aren't exactly pillaging their homes' date=' raping their women, and stealing their food. Mayhaps their have been some isolated cases, but it's not the norm.

 

The military has two rules for Iraqi citizens:

 

Don't be out after curfew.

Don't shoot at coalition soldiers.[/quote']

Ah yes of course: call them isolated incidents, and then they just "don't count".

 

Neither the USA or the UK has the right to tell people in Iraq when or where they can be - it's their country, not ours. Remember the point of the war (laying aside WOMD for the moment)? Topple the dictator, and install a democratic governing body? "If you come outdoors after dark we might shoot you, Jonny Foreigner" does not sound like democracy to me.

[Tesseract]

I bet when the Iraqi people are thinking about the democracy and the current torture issues, they think isnt there a form of government where torture dosnt happen?

Dictatorship and democracy are quite flawed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want to see real democracy go to this site:http://www.wegovern.ca/index.htm

[atinymonkey]

Defend them from what? We aren't exactly pillaging their homes' date=' raping their women, and stealing their food. Mayhaps their have been some isolated cases, but it's not the norm.

 

The military has two rules for Iraqi citizens:

 

Don't be out after curfew.

Don't shoot at coalition soldiers.[/quote']

 

I dont think you can invade a country and expect not to be shot at. But it's besides the point, people are being manipulated by the religious groups to incite violence, and in the middle east that's not a movement anyone can stop with ease. The religious leaders got given pictures of the prision camp victims, and that's about all they needed to sway public opinion.

 

There is no simple answer, the longer we stay in Iraq the worse it will get. It'll probably be a hellhole once we leave, as well. It's our legacy to the people of Iraq, and they might be jusified in the anger and resentment.

 

Why didn't we just lift sanctions? Would have saved us $100 billion.

 

The US cannot dictate to the UN what it should do, that was the whole argument when the war started.

 

All in all, it's a shitty situation.

[Tesseract]

The real question now is how will the US leave Iraq?They cant just pack up and go.President Bush wants to hand control over to the Iraquis on June 30th but who is he going to give it to?Exchanging control isnt going to solve the problem anyway, the coalition will have to pay for the damage in Iraq and help with the rebuilding.They also have to stop going into religious cities and capitals, stop supporting Israel (which I dont know how they can support anyway), get rid of the homoerotic prison guards in Iraq, and finally leave and never come back.

[Sayonara]

There is absolutely no reason why the stabilisation of Iraq cannot be carried out by Italian, Australian and French troops.

 

The UK and the USA forces need to realise that they have outstayed their welcome.

[Sayonara]

the coalition will have to pay for the damage in Iraq and help with the rebuilding.

The US administration was handing out contracts for rebuilding Iraq to US companies before the invasion even began.

[Tesseract]

There is absolutely no reason why the stabilisation of Iraq cannot be carried out by Italian' date=' Australian and French troops.

 

The UK and the USA forces need to realise that they have outstayed their welcome.[/quote']

 

Exactly what Ive been thinking.Theres alot of hate out there for the US and UK.

[Tesseract]

The US administration was handing out contracts for rebuilding Iraq to US companies before the invasion even began.

 

Yeah I know I didnt say they are going to.I was making a list, so once theyre done with the rebuilding...so on and so forth.

[Phi for All]

Have any of you seen this before? This guy was a marine's marine in his day, long before any of us were born. He was one of only two Marines who received the Medal of Honor TWICE for separate acts of outstanding bravery.

 

-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley

Butler, USMC.

 

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as

something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a

small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the

benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

 

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a

nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with

America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then

it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag

follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

 

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy

investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight

for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of

Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

 

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is

blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle

men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and

a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

 

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison.

Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four

months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile

military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks

from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I

spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business,

for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

 

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of

it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a

thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties

remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This

is typical with everyone in the military service.

 

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil

interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the

National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping

of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall

Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua

for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912

(where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the

Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to

see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

 

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a

swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al

Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in

three districts. I operated on three continents.

I respect what our soldiers are going through over there, but Bush's "racket in Iraq" does NOT deserve our patriotism.

[Daniel]

This debate is getting silly.

 

I think it is only a good thing that the killers are gotten rid of.

 

Would you like to live alongside them ?

 

The American army could be a lot worse in treating the civilians. Do you know how the Russians treat the Chechens in that particular war ? They regularly take civilians off the street into a basement, and that civilian is never seen again. You and I cannot possibly imagine how some of them are killed.

 

I don't support America being in Iraq, but a lot of people here are siding with savages and animals, due to them being blinded by their anti americanism.

[Sayonara]

The American army could be a lot worse in treating the civilians. Do you know how the Russians treat the Chechens in that particular war ? They regularly take civilians off the street into a basement, and that civilian is never seen again. You and I cannot possibly imagine how some of them are killed.

That has nothing to do with how the UK and the USA ought to conduct themselves.

"If Jimmy can punch Freddy in the face it's ok for me to pinch Susan" ought to be left in the playground where it belongs.

 

I don't support America being in Iraq, but a lot of people here are siding with savages and animals, due to them being blinded by their anti americanism.

Not only do I find that comment to be racist, but you are also disregarding the fact that the people you are so quick to label as "anti-americans" are arguing from a moral and/or ethical standpoint.

You might also have bothered to look at where people come from, and you'd notice that a lot of us have no reason to be either pro- or anti-American.

Hey guess what - the world does not revolve around the USA, and it's perfectly possible to have opinions on things without being bundled into the patriot or terrorist boxes.

[Daniel]

"Not only do I find that comment to be racist"

 

Did I say that all Iraqis were "savages and animals" ?

 

I was referring to those who fight the Americans in such ways as the Berg killing.

 

Maybe your quick jump to conclusion is indicative of your own views.

 

My point about the Russians is that if America was really there to treat the citizens like shit, then it would be a lot worse. They have to rebuild Iraq now, they know that.

[Daniel]

Moral/ethical standpoint ?

 

It is good to get rid of people like Saddam. Is that morally wrong ?

 

I am not American either.

 

There will be individual soldiers who wish to abuse the Iraqi people, but these should not be a reflection of American intentions in Iraq.