Watchmen

[Daecon]

Is it just me, or did these ordinary people appear to develop superhuman strength just by putting on a fancy dress costume?

[bascule]

I have to say thought that I disagree with your assessment of Rorschach. He's definitely off his rocker but I don't think you're supposed to write him off. He was driven to his current state by being confronted with extremes of human evil, and I think a large part of the book is the fact that people can be, and often are, shit. This had a lot to do with the Comedian's view of things, too. Because of this Rorschach and the Comedian justify their violence against people - and yet, it seems neither can accept Adrian's course of action. Even they have a line and Adrian crossed it.

 

Well, that's one thing that's certainly missing from the movie adaptation: in the graphic novel, the Comedian is in on Veidt's scheme and is killed alongside everyone else involved with it to ensure there are no information leaks (and also because Veidt was worried about him being on the verge of cracking).

 

In regard to Rorschach, you're wrong... Alan Moore wants you to write him off as a total nutjob. This is certainly an area where there is an enormous difference between the movie and the graphic novel. The graphic novel depicts Rorschach's day-to-day life where he's a sign-carrying conspiracy theory nutjob. Only at night does he mask up and try to hunt what he considers to be the dregs of society. Rorschach is intended to be your typical extreme right wing conspiracy theorist nutjob who hates the liberals and everything they're doing to society.

 

All of this is missing from the movie and you get a very different impression of Rorschach.

[Paralith]

I'm starting to feel like I completely misunderstood the book. I was under the impression that the Comedian accidentally discovered Adrian's plot by flying over the island where the artists were (coming back from one of his government jobs) and then doing some of his own digging to figure out what the hell he had seen. He wasn't in on it. He discovered it and it was driving him crazy. Did Alan Moore write/say something about his intentions with Rorschach? The book itself spent an awful lot of pages on a character you're supposed to "write off."

[bascule]

I'm starting to feel like I completely misunderstood the book. I was under the impression that the Comedian accidentally discovered Adrian's plot by flying over the island where the artists were (coming back from one of his government jobs) and then doing some of his own digging to figure out what the hell he had seen. He wasn't in on it. He discovered it and it was driving him crazy.

 

Yeah, my bad. It has been some 4 years since I last read it. It looks like the true role of the Comedian was imparting to Ozymandias the sense of inevitability of nuclear war. Then Ozymandias kills him after he discovers the plan.

 

Did Alan Moore write/say something about his intentions with Rorschach? The book itself spent an awful lot of pages on a character you're supposed to "write off."

 

I think he made his opinion of Rorschach abundantly clear when he had Dr. Manhattan explode him because he wouldn't compromise from his black-and-white morality.

[Paralith]

I think he made his opinion of Rorschach abundantly clear when he had Dr. Manhattan explode him because he wouldn't compromise from his black-and-white morality.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. John finally saw the value of human life, in terms he was able to appreciate, and having finally come to this decision he most certainly wouldn't let the determination of one man to whom he had little to zero personal attachment to destroy what he perceived to be a hard won but potentially lasting peace. It makes perfect sense with John's character and I don't think one single ending act outweighs a book full of character development that endeared this little psychotic anti-hero to our hearts.

 

Maybe I'm just the weird one out here, (wouldn't be the first time) but I felt a decent attachment to Rorschach after reading the book. I don't think it was a strange artifact of the movie that he felt like one of the main protagonists. We hear from his journal, he's an underdog from the beginning and that always tends to pull the emotional heart strings (bad childhood, physically smaller than all the other heroes), when he's in jail he fights for himself in the face of incredible odds against him and wins.

 

He is a product of his world. When he was taken out of his mother's house and put in a special school he did well. Perhaps would have continued to be relatively normal in such a protected environment, but he was forced to go out into the world by himself again and be confronted with the horrors that people are capable of. Just knowing about these things and really thinking about them can change people's lives, like it did to the psychiatrist that heard Rorschach's story.

[Kaeroll]

I'm with Paralith on this one... I don't think Moore expects us to simply disregard Rorschach as a nutjob. Each character in the novel has a different view on the world (even the fella selling the New Frontiersman... though his seems rather fluid) and I'm not sure he actually intends to comment on who is "right" - part of the challenge of the book is to decide that for yourself (hence this discussion).

 

I do suspect that part of the reason Rorschach is portrayed as, for lack of a better word, badass is to make him sympathetic, so we do leave the book feeling some liking for him despite many of his views being abhorrent to many readers. By making him 'cool' (c'mon - who honestly doesn't think he's a kick-ass anti-hero during the prison sequence?) we're forced to consider his views rather than write them off, and not all of them are repulsive; his dedication to the truth, which defines his last moments, is admirable (though perhaps misguided).

 

I think the book is intended to ask the question that you've termed the 'Watchmen dilemma'. If we were intended to simply disregard Rorschach - the strongest (and perhaps only) representative of option A (expose the truth no matter the cost), the book would not be asking the question but answering it. I don't think great literature intends to answer questions but pose them.

[bascule]

I think the book is intended to ask the question that you've termed the 'Watchmen dilemma'. If we were intended to simply disregard Rorschach - the strongest (and perhaps only) representative of option A (expose the truth no matter the cost), the book would not be asking the question but answering it. I don't think great literature intends to answer questions but pose them.

 

Well yes, Rorschach is there to show you the mentality of someone with a black and white value system. Rorschach as a victim of society? I guess. The point is he's pretty f*cked up.

 

Watchmen is constantly challenging your expectations. It starts off with Rorschach as the main character / protagonist, although one that Alan Moore wants to annoy you with off the bat (with his constant prattling about the liberals and how they're destroying society). Ozymandias goes from hero to villain back to hero. And in the end, Rorschach is the antihero.

Edited March 18, 2009 by bascule

[Xittenn]

Hmmmmmm antihero, noiresque comic book movie; not new but I liked it. The foreshadowing of the end in the part where the Comedian shoots the Korean girl he impregnated was well placed and very legible!

 

Pornographic? Is that due to exposed breasts and blue penis? The former was a bit gratuitous, but the latter is certainly from the original story (which actually explained it at one point).

 

Manhattan was such a hotty! Three Manhattens, I don't know what she was complaining about. The blue cat with horns was pretty cool too.

 

That and the chopping off the limbs - that bothered me.

 

What happened to The Figure? I've picutred a few scenarios but none do the scene justice!

[Paralith]

Well yes, Rorschach is there to show you the mentality of someone with a black and white value system. Rorschach as a victim of society? I guess. The point is he's pretty f*cked up.

 

I don't know if I'd use the word victim. Obviously not everyone's reaction to realizing a little girl was chopped up and fed to dogs is to burn the perpetrator alive. His reactions are not those of a normal human and I'm not trying to say they are - like you say, he's pretty f*cked up, but I don't think the point of his character is merely to say, "People who become superheroes are effin crazy." His reactions, though extreme, are reactions to his environment. In a calmer environment he was a calmer person. In a more violent environment he becomes more violent himself. Almost as though he amplifies what he sees. Rorschach probably would have remained Walter if he had never come across the man who chopped up the little girl or anyone like him. But the point is people like that are out there, and its because of them that Walter became Rorschach.

[1nc4rnation]

What happened to The Figure? I've picutred a few scenarios but none do the scene justice!

huh? what are you on about?

[Paralith]

huh? what are you on about?

 

I think buttacup means Big Figure, the midget mob boss that Rorschach offed in the bathroom. The book never showed exactly what he did either. You're left to your imagination, buttacup!

[1nc4rnation]

Lol, oh. I see we're making fun of little people now.

 

Seriously. The whole "killing people" thing? Disturbing.

 

Okay okay okay fine, I admit it. I've lived a very sheltered life and have never had to harm a soul to survive. I'm not much of a "tough guy". Leave me alone. :/

[Xittenn]

but I don't think the point of his character is merely to say, "People who become superheroes are effin crazy."

 

I don't know I think the whole movie did a pretty good job of saying that..............made that imagination of mine run wild!

 

Have you ever heard the last two tracks of NIN Fixed album? Add the Crystal Methods Trip Like I Do lyrics "ah.....oh my God......can't you trip like I do"(spawn soundtrack or original) to the end of them and you've got pretty much how I felt and looked walking out of the theatre tuesday night(I like to dress casual.......not!)

Edited March 19, 2009 by buttacup

[iPeppers]

I had never read the comics, but went to see the movie with some friends anyways, because we were bored. I think the general consensus was that it was definitely worth our time and money. But I came out having a few questions....

 

What's with all the blue genitalia? If Mr. Manhattan wasn't "human" enough anymore to wear clothes, why couldn't he at least change his appearance to not include that massive blue thing in every scene?

 

Also, I don't mind bone-crushing violence in my movies now and again (as long as it comes with a great storyline), but why did the masked vigilantes all seem to have super strength and extreme tolerance to pain? I thought they were supposed to be normal people, and the movie never explained otherwise.

 

Yes, I did think it was a great storyline at least and a good movie, so I don't have much to complain about, just those couple of questions.

[bascule]

Also, I don't mind bone-crushing violence in my movies now and again (as long as it comes with a great storyline), but why did the masked vigilantes all seem to have super strength and extreme tolerance to pain? I thought they were supposed to be normal people, and the movie never explained otherwise.

 

Because the movie was directed by Zack "

" Snyder. Like... Rorschach is supposed to be a tough guy, but all the crazy Mirrors Edge-style freewalking he does is a complete contrivance of the movie. The bone crunching brutality... 100% Zack Snyder. And no, Rorschach doesn't know kung fu.

 

It's certainly not present in the graphic novel.

[Paralith]

Because the movie was directed by Zack "

" Snyder. Like... Rorschach is supposed to be a tough guy, but all the crazy Mirrors Edge-style freewalking he does is a complete contrivance of the movie. The bone crunching brutality... 100% Zack Snyder. And no, Rorschach doesn't know kung fu.

 

It's certainly not present in the graphic novel.

 

The excessive kung-fu sequences and seeming invulnerability are definitely aspects of the movie - when Rorschach jumps out of the window he hurts himself to the point where he can't run when the police mob him. That's really how they catch him in the book.

 

But Rorschach is supposed to be brutal. He is completely willing to hurt people to get what he needs. Crunching the glass in the guy's hand - straight out of the book. Killing the guy who chopped up the girl - definitely in the book, only worse, really. After handcuffing the guy to the wood-burning oven, Rorschach gives him one of the carving knives and then sets the house on fire - tells him he can cut through his arm faster than he can cut through the handcuffs, and walks out. At least in the movie the guy died quick.

 

Supposedly the heroes have put themselves through training too - Laurie's mom had her train and practice from a young age, for example. They are supposed to be more handy than your average joe, though the movie definitely took that to a less realistic extreme.

[Kaeroll]

It's certainly not present in the graphic novel.

Bloody entertaining though!

[bascule]

Supposedly the heroes have put themselves through training too - Laurie's mom had her train and practice from a young age, for example. They are supposed to be more handy than your average joe, though the movie definitely took that to a less realistic extreme.

 

Perhaps the worst overembellishment is the mugging. Here's not one alleyway full of dozens of muggers, not two alleyways full of two dozen muggers, but three alleyways full of three dozen muggers! And Night Owl and Silk Spectre proceed to kick all their asses in a long choreographed fight sequence complete with slow mo sequences so you can see just how brutal the damage actually is.

 

As I recall in the graphic novel that fight scene spanned maybe 5 panels, if that. There's maybe half a dozen muggers... the fight certainly wasn't pretty (pretty sure there was some nosebreaking and blood) but it's not on the Zack Snyder level.

 

And, yeah, there's still the issue of Rorschach having the freewalking abilities of the girl from Mirror's Edge... since when is he a ninja? He's basically supposed to be a thug.