Chemicals, and how to obtain them.

[Theophrastus]

Hello, I have currently, after doing a variety of theoretical work have begun to venture into the world of the chemical, only to find my first impediment. Obtaining chemicals. To my dissappointment, canada, seems not to be a principal nation in the amateur chemistry department, and as such am at a loss to obtain various key chemicals. My primary concern, as of now, is the obtaining of strong acid or base, such as hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, sodium hydroxide, etc. I have currently been able to attain magnesium, copper, iron, iron (III) oxide, Copper sulfate, Calcium Hydroxide, ammonium chloride, potassium hexacyanoferrate, sodium hydrogen sulfate, ammonium iron (III) sulfate. Thoughts and help on any sorts of chemical syntheses I might be able to accomplish with these chemicals is most appreciated.

 

ps:(just please don't mention the obvious displacement reactions I could perform with CuSO4)

 

pps: While help in chemistry is appreciated, if you are to find a Canadian chemical supplier, please let me know!

 

ppps: One idea I had was the obtaining of ammonia, by reacting NH4Cl and Ca(OH)2 as such:

 

-2NH4Cl + Ca(OH)2 - 2NH3 + 2(H2O) + CaCl2

 

Then reacting it with copper sulfate to form a coordination complex, after extracting it from the solution.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Theophrastus
addition to the original material

[hermanntrude]

You won't find an official supplier who will sell you the chemicals by name from a chemical catalogue, unless you are a bona fide institution (like me :0)). However, there are ways and means of getting hold of some chemicals if they are used in non-chemistry industries. For instance, hydrochloric acid can be purchased under the name "muriatic acid". Talk to some of our other members for advice on this type of thing, but be warned that we take safety very seriously here and if you appear to be attempting experiments which are unsafe for home, there could be trouble. read our hazmat policy before posting anything like that.

[Rob]

The bi-products of the electrolysis of NaCl(aq) are Chlorine and Hydrogen, so surely you could just put a lit splint into whatever you've collected from the electolysis, then add Purified (Distilled) water. So that's your hydrochloric acid.

[Theophrastus]

Agreed, particularly in chemistry, safety is a concern, however, I must admit I've detected a rather accusatory tone to your comment, and as such, can say that I am not interested in "bangs," to try and avoid such a sensitive subject. In regards to common names, I have already found MgSO4 (epsom salt), and Na2Co3 (Washing Soda), and the like. My need for a way to synthesize acid arises from the fact that despite a fair amount of searching, I was unable to find muriatic acid. In regards to the rules and code of conduct, I'm grateful that you pointed this out, as it is useful to know the rules by which one is to play. Cheers!

[hermanntrude]

no accusation intended. We just find it's wise to make it clear that safety is important at an early stage in this type of discussion. we have a few members who delight in being unsafe and telling the world about it as if it was a cool thing to do.

 

Rob, your method could probably work but it'd be very hazardous and wouldn't give much HCl per day's work. Part of the difficulty is that depending on the voltage used and the concentration of the NaCl, some oxygen may also be given off with the chlorine

[nitric]

May i add, being a amateur chemist myself, that HCl can be found in many hardware stores in there paint sections as muriatic acid in shockingly sized containers, it is sold as 31.45% HCl and will emit very irritating fumes and will "fume" in moist air. As for the complex, very dilute ammonia sold at grocery stores will work, as with pharmacies may carry(very strong irritant) something called "strong ammonia thats about 20-29% NH3.

hope this helps and doesn't break the Hazmat policy

[Theophrastus]

Thanks for the muriatic acid tip. I recently consulted, a friend, only to discover large 34% buckets, being sold at home hardware. Absolutely brilliant stuff.

 

An interesting but unrelated thought: on first handling the mixture, I felt a slight stinging sensation, however, I rinsed my hands thoroughly to be sure, and in retrospect, it was probably only a figment of my mind's early anxiety, just as one feels as if their head is itching, at a checkup for lice, despite the pests' inexistence.

[UC]

Thanks for the muriatic acid tip. I recently consulted, a friend, only to discover large 34% buckets, being sold at home hardware. Absolutely brilliant stuff.

 

An interesting but unrelated thought: on first handling the mixture, I felt a slight stinging sensation, however, I rinsed my hands thoroughly to be sure, and in retrospect, it was probably only a figment of my mind's early anxiety, just as one feels as if their head is itching, at a checkup for lice, despite the pests' inexistence.

 

That's what gloves are for.

[Theophrastus]

I know: safety first.

Yes I did wear gloves, lovely chemical resistant ones I recently purchased from an online supplier, despite this, I still thought I felt something. Strange, though as I stated in my first post- irrelevant to the matter at hand. I think that an occurance such as this would better fit into the psychology forum page. Regardless... Cheers!!!

[max.yevs]

I think that an occurance such as this would better fit into the psychology forum page. Regardless... Cheers!!!

 

I don't think that was a hallucination, hydrochloric acid is irritant and it stings me too sometimes if i forget to wash my hands off. Sulfuric and nitric acid- for those you better wear gloves, im sure they're capable of dissolving the skin right off your hand.

[insane_alien]

its not the type of acid that does the damage its the concentration. still, wear gloves at all times when handling corrosive chemicals, even if the concentration is very low.

[max.yevs]

its not the type of acid that does the damage its the concentration.

 

Well I'm sure 20% nitric acid is more corrosive then 20% hydroiodic acid, no?

 

say your hands are made out of insoluble lead iodide...

put them in a bucket of HI, and nothing would happen.

put them in a bucket of HNO3, and it would turns your hands into soluble hydroiodic acid and lead nitrate, dissolving your hands right off. (sorry for the gruesomeness)

Edited March 30, 2009 by max.yevs

[insane_alien]

depends on what it is corroding. hydrochloric acid is a stronger acid than nitric acid.

[YT2095]

nitric is an Oxidising acid, that`s what makes it seem stronger, it performs 2 actions as opposed to one.

add some H2O2 to HCl or Sulphuric, and you`ll put Nitric down much lower on your list

[coke]

depends on what it is corroding. hydrochloric acid is a stronger acid than nitric acid.

 

Stronger acid in which way, more corrosive or donates more hydrogen ions?

 

Because for example hydrochloric acid is a stronger acid then hydrofluoric, but hydrofluoric is much more corrosive.

 

Nitric acid dissociates slightly worse, but the nitrate ion has more oxidizing potential then the chloride ion, meaning nitric acid is more powerful not just due to the oxidizing power of nitrates...(i.e. even nitrate salts are oxidizers).

 

I agree YT2095, the oxygen from hydrogen peroxide helps strip the hydrogens off the acid, so that they are not left unpaired.

[UC]

Stronger acid in which way, more corrosive or donates more hydrogen ions?

 

Because for example hydrochloric acid is a stronger acid then hydrofluoric, but hydrofluoric is much more corrosive.

 

Nitric acid dissociates slightly worse, but the nitrate ion has more oxidizing potential then the chloride ion, meaning nitric acid is more powerful not just due to the oxidizing power of nitrates...(i.e. even nitrate salts are oxidizers).

 

I agree YT2095, the oxygen from hydrogen peroxide helps strip the hydrogens off the acid, so that they are not left unpaired.

 

The corrosiveness of HF is only due to the powers of the fluoride anion. Chloride ion has just about 0 oxidation potential. The oxidizing power of nitrate should have nothing to do with how "strong" it is. The statement you make about the H2O2 is a load of bollocks. he's saying that if you make HCl and H2SO4 oxidizing, you will see that you are mistaking oxidizing power for acidity.

 

Please look up the Hammett acidity function.

 

At any rate, the strongest acid that can exist in aqueous solution is [ce] H3O^+ [/ce]. To what degree the acidic protons of a given acid choose to protonate water to make hydronium ion is the main concern.

[coke]

The corrosiveness of HF is only due to the powers of the fluoride anion. Chloride ion has just about 0 oxidation potential. The oxidizing power of nitrate should have nothing to do with how "strong" it is. The statement you make about the H2O2 is a load of bollocks. he's saying that if you make HCl and H2SO4 oxidizing, you will see that you are mistaking oxidizing power for acidity.

 

Please look up the Hammett acidity function.

 

At any rate, the strongest acid that can exist in aqueous solution is [ce] H3O^+ [/ce]. To what degree the acidic protons of a given acid choose to protonate water to make hydronium ion is the main concern.

 

Well if the powers of the fluoride ion make HF more corrosive then HCl, why doesn't the nitrate or sulfate ion make HNO3 and H2SO4 more corrosive then HCl? In fact, I know they are more corrosive. And the Hammett acidity function you gave me to look up, it agrees what I am saying. Fluorine (V=3) has significantly better oxidizing potential than chlorine (V=1.4), which makes HF more corrosive than HCl despite HCl being the stronger acid in water.

 

About the H2O2, ok there's another way of thinking about it- H2O2 oxidizes whatever you are oxidizing and then the acid does a double substitution with the oxide. But the only difference in this explanation is that you can also explain why an acid + H2O2 often defeats passivation. But what he was saying was that most of nitric acid's corrosiveness comes from its oxidizing abilities... (although the nitrate radical is still more electronegative than the oxygen radical, so H2O2 + HCl would not be more corrosive than nitric acid).

 

In life you'll find that the H3O+ concentration does not really matter, outside of maybe organic chemistry or something. Because, in water an acid exists in equilibrium with H3O+ and its negative ion. Say HF, which dissociates only about 10%, is used on potassium.

[ce]HF + H2O <-> H3O^+ + F^-[/ce]

[ce]2H3O^+ + 2F^- + 2K -> 2H2O + H2 + 2F^- + 2K^+[/ce]

as you can see, the second reaction consumes both H3O+ and F-, thus the equilibrium moves in the first equation to produce more H3O+ and F-...which continue to eat through the potassium. No water at all? Still fine. Gaseous hydrogen fluoride will eat through potassium, no problem.

 

H+ is the strongest acid? Yep. But the least corrosive. Because reacting, say Na, with an acid, say HA, would mean the H+ reluctantly taking back its electron and turning into H2, the Na being happy to give its electron and turn to Na+, and how much A- is happier to be paired with Na+ than H+. That last part is hard to recognize, especially when everything is ionized in solution. But heat is released.

 

The Lewis definition for acids is much better when talking about corrosiveness. After all, the acid would be more corrosive if it didn't have the hydrogen at all, just the fluorine or sulfate radical or whatever. Bronsted Lowry's 'prot0nate' definition makes sense only for pH, which is what I think the "bunch of bollocks" is, as you say, for what makes hydrogen so special? Why should only hydrogen salts get to be acids? Silver nitrate is more corrosive than nitric acid; silver is one of those few things that are less reactive then hydrogen.

 

 

how much A- is happier to be paired with Na+ than H+

 

And if you disagree with this, I can easily give you an example- lead nitrate will react with potassium iodide, even in solution, where they are ionized. potassium is happier to be with nitrate, nitrate is happier to be with potassium. lead and iodide are less reactive, respectively, then potassium and nitrate, and so they will just have to settle for each other.

 

[ce]Pb(NO3)2 + 2KI -> 2KNO3 + PbI2[/ce]

 

Of course, many people will say there would be no reaction, the ions all remain ionized!. But the reaction has occured, and has released some heat. The reason I picked the

is because you can't argue that the reaction hasn't occured because you will get quite a bit of yellow potassium iodide precipitate! But the same will be for many salts, i.e. sodium sulfate and potassium chloride. In fact, here's the simplest double substitution formula.

AY + BX > AX + BY

even if they just stay as A+, B+, X-, Y-.

where A and B are metals, A more reactive, and X and Y are nometals, X more reactive.

A is happier with X, X is happier with A, and B and Y just have to settle for each other.

thus proving that quote i quoted.

 

Sorry this post came out so long, I just want to prove the difference between strongest and most corrosive acid.

Edited March 31, 2009 by coke
Consecutive posts merged.

[Theophrastus]

A long post, and quite thorough and well said, however, you must take note that the Lewis theory, while displaying the flaws of the previous Arrhenius, and bronsted- lowry theories, bears some flaws of its own. For example the definition for an acid in this theory, is a subtance that would accept an electron pair, from the predefined lewis base, to form a coordination complex. If one were to accept any compound with these tendency as an acid, you could easily define many transition metal ions as acids, when truly, they are not.

[hermanntrude]

A long post, and quite thorough and well said, however, you must take note that the Lewis theory, while displaying the flaws of the previous Arrhenius, and bronsted- lowry theories, bears some flaws of its own. For example the definition for an acid in this theory, is a subtance that would accept an electron pair, from the predefined lewis base, to form a coordination complex. If one were to accept any compound with these tendency as an acid, you could easily define many transition metal ions as acids, when truly, they are not.

 

why wouldn't you define the transition metals as acids? if they accept electrons, then at the very least they are Lewis acids. The very term "acid" is man-made and doesn't correlate to any universal law or universal substance. It is defined by the three theories taught in schools and therefore anything which fits those definitions is considered an acid.

[Theophrastus]

Ah, I should have been more clear, I meant that independently, they do not react in the archityped acidic manner, though you make an excellent point and correction, Hermanntrude; the term acid is based upon governing laws of interaction, and not physical properties. I suppose, in regards to that, I suppose the names of the theories are suitable clarifications, to distinguish physical properties. (Lewis acid, Arrhenius base, etc.) Thanks for the update!

[Sebbass69]

You won't find an official supplier who will sell you the chemicals by name from a chemical catalogue, unless you are a bona fide institution (like me :0)). However, there are ways and means of getting hold of some chemicals if they are used in non-chemistry industries. For instance, hydrochloric acid can be purchased under the name "muriatic acid". Talk to some of our other members for advice on this type of thing, but be warned that we take safety very seriously here and if you appear to be attempting experiments which are unsafe for home, there could be trouble. read our hazmat policy before posting anything like that.

 

That is not correct - there are many chemical suppliers that will sell to individuals -

[Theophrastus]

It's true that there exist hobby chemistry suppliers, however, they are scarcer, and are generally careful in selling particular products to people. Basic chemicals, such as dilute hydrochloric acid, sodium hydroxide, certain organic acid, are less suspicious, however, what with the billion dollar international drug industry, caution, towards certain chemicals, can certainly be expected. Similarly for chemicals, generally associated with pyrotechnics. So yes, suppliers exist, however, it is certainly more difficult to be a hobby chemist today, what with impending restrictions due to the existence of lunatics, and the like.

[Sebbass69]

It's true that there exist hobby chemistry suppliers, however, they are scarcer, and are generally careful in selling particular products to people. Basic chemicals, such as dilute hydrochloric acid, sodium hydroxide, certain organic acid, are less suspicious, however, what with the billion dollar international drug industry, caution, towards certain chemicals, can certainly be expected. Similarly for chemicals, generally associated with pyrotechnics. So yes, suppliers exist, however, it is certainly more difficult to be a hobby chemist today, what with impending restrictions due to the existence of lunatics, and the like.

 

You're absolutely correct -

and it's too bad you're right.... nothing personal, it just sucks that having chemistry as a hobby is so hard -

[Theophrastus]

Yeah... and feels even worse, when I read books like Uncle Tungsten, discussing hobby chemistry in the 40's and 50's; Alas, how time has flown, and how society has changed.

[salter]

if you haven't checked out http://www.unitednuclear.com you should.