Cap'n Refsmmat Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 I'm guessing it's easy enough to measure. It's just extremely difficult to extrapolate backward over time to see the trend.
mooeypoo Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) Again, still no answer as to if we are further from the sun now than we used to be in the past. Save you garbage, buddy, and answer the question. The Earth-Sun interaction is a very complicated (and yet known) subject. First, we are moving away from the sun but the movement is VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY slow and EXTREEEEMMMEEELLLYYYY tiny. That process is accompanied by the Sun slowing it's rotation, too. So, yes, technically we are moving away from the sun at an average rate of one micrometer a year. To make it clear: 1 micrometer = [math]\frac{1}{10,000} \text{cm} = \frac{1}{100} * \frac{1}{10,000} \text{meters} = \frac{1}{1,000,000} \text{meters}[/math] per year. If we ignore everything else that affects our planet (and there are many other forces at play here, including some that do not "play well" with F=ma, but we'll leave that for another time), and calculate just upon these measures how "far" away from the Sun the Earth was at the beginning of the Solar System, we get this: The Solar System is about 4.5 billion years old. The Earth is moving away at around a millionth of a meter per year. [math]\frac{1}{1,000,000} \text{meters} * 4,500,000,000 \text{years} = 4,500 \text{meters}[/math] That means that if we ignore everything else (hrm) we "calculate" that the Earth was formed about 4.5km closer to the sun. Considering the fact the Earth's diameter is about 300 times that (12,756.32 kilometers), this movement in such a large span of time is minuscule. Just to compare things, the Moon is moving away from the Earth at a rate of about 3.8 centimeters per year (much much bigger effect, though still small). This effect also causes the rate of rotation of the Earth to slow down (we "gain" about 2 milliseconds per a hundred years or so). At the rate the Moon is moving away from the Earth, it will take approximately a billion years (yes, read that again, a billion years) for the Moon to "break" orbit. You can no longer claim "no one answers" your question. A simple google search with show many more such sites with explanations and (if you insist) the math to back it up. Whoever is interested in the real science behind this (quite interesting) process, the information exists here: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=317 Here's a snippet: Is the orbit itself changing? Well, there are some long-period oscillations, but those are very small, and don't imply that we're systematically moving towards or away from the Sun. There is an effect which is making us move very slowly away from the Sun. That is the tidal interaction between the Sun and the Earth. This slows down the rotation of the Sun, and pushes the Earth farther away from the Sun. You can read about tides, as they relate to the Earth-Moon system here. The principle for the Sun-Earth system should be the same. But how big of an effect is this? It turns out that the yearly increase in the distance between the Earth and the Sun from this effect is only about one micrometer (a millionth of a meter, or a ten thousandth of a centimeter). So this is a *very* tiny effect. If you need assistance going over the math (it's actually not as hard as it sounds, just requires knowledge of second order time derivatives, I've done this in my Astronomy 201 course last semester), I am sure we'll all be happy to walk you through it. Of course, that would mean you will need to read the resource first and ask relevant non circular questions. I wonder what would happen first - the Earth break orbit from the sun or you actually dropping the "I know all even though I never opened a book in my life and have no clue what mathematics is" attitude. Either way, I am not going to hold my breath. Edited March 25, 2009 by mooeypoo
Duration Posted March 25, 2009 Author Posted March 25, 2009 Thank You Mooeypoo, for having the intestinal fortitude (read balls) to come forth with the truth. Like I said before, take it and run. I have no desire to pursue it further. I want obscurity.
mooeypoo Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Take it where? What does that prove? Did you even read the article?
Duration Posted March 25, 2009 Author Posted March 25, 2009 Take it where? What does that prove? Did you even read the article? Use the information and disseminate it, and talk about it, and write about it, and speak about it, until your science buddies understand we came from the sun.
mooeypoo Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 So again, the Earth is traveling away from the sun. In the past, the Earth was inside the sun. If you want to say the Earth is still inside the sun, that's fine with me, as the sun is the solar system's core, the Earth just got further away from the sun's core. It just got further away. It just got further away. It just got further away. Duration, you're either blind or you insist on being an idiot. Look at what I wrote. 4.5 billion years ago the Earth was 4.5 kilometers CLOSER TO THE SUN. That means that the Earth is indeed moving slowly away from the sun, yay for you, but it never was INSIDE THE SUN.
Duration Posted March 25, 2009 Author Posted March 25, 2009 Duration, you're either blind or you insist on being an idiot. Look at what I wrote. 4.5 billion years ago the Earth was 4.5 kilometers CLOSER TO THE SUN. That means that the Earth is indeed moving slowly away from the sun, yay for you, but it never was INSIDE THE SUN. Is the sun the core of the solar system?
mooeypoo Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Let's reiterate: The Solar System is about 4.5 billion years old. The Earth is moving away at around a millionth of a meter per year. [math]\frac{1}{1,000,000} \text{meters} * 4,500,000,000 \text{years} = 4,500 \text{meters}[/math] That means that if we ignore everything else (hrm) we "calculate" that the Earth was formed about 4.5km closer to the sun. Considering the fact the Earth's diameter is about 300 times that (12,756.32 kilometers), this movement in such a large span of time is minuscule. When the Earth was formed it was 4.5 kilometers closer to the Sun than it is today. That is by FAR not even close to its diameter -- how is this "inside" the sun?
Duration Posted March 25, 2009 Author Posted March 25, 2009 Let's reiterate: When the Earth was formed it was 4.5 kilometers closer to the Sun than it is today. That is by FAR not even close to its diameter -- how is this "inside" the sun? You need a better birth certificate with your new found knowledge, calculate it, DH knows how.
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 A rough calculation shows that Earth would have to be receding from the Sun at a rate of 33 meters per year to have come from the Sun in the 4.5 billion years it has been around. That's only, oh, five or six orders of magnitude off from the actual number.
Duration Posted March 25, 2009 Author Posted March 25, 2009 A rough calculation shows that Earth would have to be receding from the Sun at a rate of 33 meters per year to have come from the Sun in the 4.5 billion years it has been around. That's only, oh, five or six orders of magnitude off from the actual number. So science wasn't even close before, eh?
mooeypoo Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 Is the sun the core of the solar system? That depends on how you define "core". It's not the absolute middle. That's also irrelevant. I didn't calculate the distance of the Earth from some arbitrary point you may call "core". I went by your statement (that the Earth was once inside the sun) and calculated the distance of the Earth from the sun. Teh conclusion is that the Earth was never inside the Sun. Today the average distance between the Sun and the Earth is 1AU (about 149,598,000 kilometers). 4.5 Billion years ago, when the Earth formed, the Earth was at a distance of [math]149,598,000-4.5=149,597,995.5 \text{ kilometers}[/math] from the Sun. Let me make this bigger: The Earth formed at a distance of 149,597,995.5 km from the Sun. This is not "INSIDE" the sun, unless you don't know what the Sun is, or what distance is, or what "inside" is. This, under no definition whatsoever other than in your weird little mind, is "inside the sun".
Duration Posted March 26, 2009 Author Posted March 26, 2009 That depends on how you define "core". It's not the absolute middle. That's also irrelevant. I didn't calculate the distance of the Earth from some arbitrary point you may call "core". I went by your statement (that the Earth was once inside the sun) and calculated the distance of the Earth from the sun. Teh conclusion is that the Earth was never inside the Sun. Today the average distance between the Sun and the Earth is 1AU (about 149,598,000 kilometers). 4.5 Billion years ago, when the Earth formed, the Earth was at a distance of [math]149,598,000-4.5=149,597,995.5 \text{kilometers}[/math] from the Sun. This, under no definition whatsoever other than in your weird little mind, is "inside the sun". Read the other thread so I don't have to do it again.
Klaynos Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 Again, still no answer as to if we are further from the sun now than we used to be in the past. Save you garbage, buddy, and answer the question. Did you read the paper? Don't comment on other people posting garbage when all you have ever posted is crap.
mooeypoo Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 I've been in this discussion with you for about 100 times already and like a malformed baby you refuse to learn not to touch the socket. I think it's time I just let you electrocute yourself.
Duration Posted March 26, 2009 Author Posted March 26, 2009 Did you read the paper? Don't comment on other people posting garbage when all you have ever posted is crap. Perpetual motion, eh?
mooeypoo Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 Do you even know how to add numbers, Duration? All you do is criticize our math skills, so far you haven't shown you know what "minus" sign is. I revert to my original conclusion that you're a 10 year old boy with some severe boredom disorder taking advantage of your time off school to pretend you know something.
Duration Posted March 26, 2009 Author Posted March 26, 2009 I've been in this discussion with you for about 100 times already and like a malformed baby you refuse to learn not to touch the socket. I think it's time I just let you electrocute yourself. There is no electric flow until the circuit is complete, and then you measure volts and amps, multiply them, and you get watts, which a unit of measure of power, which is work/time. Work being force*distance, and time being the duration, of course. Bite me!
mooeypoo Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 There is no electric flow until the circuit is complete, and then you measure volts and amps, multiply them, and you get watts, which a unit of measure of power, which is work/time. Right, well, I wouldn't recommend you test that on an actual live socket, ey? That would transform you from a plain idiot to a dead idiot. Bite me! Unlike vampires, my special powers don't transfer.
Klaynos Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 This statement bothers me. What do you mean to measure a torque in two different reference frames? Please give a simple example, such as using a teeter totter. Showing a desire to learn. I like this. We have three space ships. Space ship one contains a rotating thing. Space ship two is travelling at velocity A relative to space ship one and contains a perfect stop watch, and measures the RPM of the rotating thing to be 10RPM. Space ship three is travelling at velocity B relative to space ship one and contains an identical perfect stop watch, this ship measures the RPM to be 12RPM. Both measurements are correct. The physics behind this has been experimentally proven billions of times a day. You just reading this post the physics has been tested once per large network node, so probably around 5 times as I'm in the UK and the server is not, per bit of information each character is at least 8 bits, for just this post that around 40000 times.
Duration Posted March 26, 2009 Author Posted March 26, 2009 Unlike vampires, my special powers don't transfer. Too bad.
Klaynos Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 Perpetual motion, eh? *sigh* no. Read it, try and understand if you don't ask questions don't just assume.
Kaeroll Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 This is probably the most bizarre thread I've ever encountered here. (Admittedly, I've not been here long. But I've seen wife-beatings, nipple-twists, and perhaps the most tenacious troll on the internet)
Duration Posted March 26, 2009 Author Posted March 26, 2009 This is probably the most bizarre thread I've ever encountered here. (Admittedly, I've not been here long. But I've seen wife-beatings, nipple-twists, and perhaps the most tenacious troll on the internet) Do I get a certificate for that?
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