Should I have done anything?

[abskebabs]

I was walking back from uni about half an hour ago, when I passed somekids loitering on the road. They seemed to be mouthing off and shouting at passers by, and one of them was throwing this pack of bin bags across the road. I couldn't really tell what they were saying, but the kid with the bin bags seemed to single me out and started throwing them at me. He tried twice and missed. I thought about doing something, but the thought just kept going through my head that I didn't want a physical confrontation.

 

That could only lead to trouble for me, and I didn't really know what I could say to them, so instead I just totally avoided them and ignored them. The kid was pretty young and couldn't even throw very far, in all honesty I felt kind of sorry for them, like they were crying out for attention.

 

I don't want to box youngsters in the UK in one category, indeed earlier on today I met a very nice girl wanting me to fill out a survey for her GCSE geography project, but what indeed should we do, as members of the general public if confronted with this kind of behaviour from youngsters?

[YT2095]

there`s 2 questions there, 1) because you were out numbered (and probably out tooled) you did the right thing by avoiding them.

2) as members of the public (Plural) we should stand together as Groups and confront them, a damn good kicking wouldn`t do them any harm and it would make them think twice next time!

 

sadly the law is against any form of discipline against these kids.

[Kaeroll]

It's a tough question, and frankly not just with regard to kids being aggressive. Not too long ago I had to catch a train, and a young woman (maybe 25?) jumped onto the tracks as the train pulled in. Thankfully, it stopped in time; a German fella pulled her up onto the platform. He sat in the same carriage as me, and shortly after the train left, one of the men the woman was with stalked down the carriage, leaned over the German, and threatened to kick the sh*t out of him for some reason. Nobody else in the carriage knew how to react.

 

I bring this up because it's a more general problem than you describe. How are we to react to unprovoked aggression from anyone at all? Ignoring it sometimes gets you personally out of the situation, but it's certainly not a solution.

[Mr Skeptic]

Well, you could have called the police and have them break up the "party" but that doesn't seem like a good solution if they weren't being dangerous.

[insane_alien]

maybe we should organize some 'citizens mob' thing. couple of hundred people in a community, if there are a bunch of hooligans being a nuiscance you call them up and they all go in with an organized charge (not to actually do anything except put some fear into them). torches and pitchforks optional.

[swansont]

Throwing rocks sounds like assault (according to the US definition). I'd expect the threat of violence, along with an attempt to do harm is something the police could act upon. But then that requires "getting involved" and I do understand the issue of weighing whether it's worth the hassle and risk of retribution.

[ParanoiA]

I have a tendency to get real loud, real fast when I feel I'm being "wronged" - including a smart ass "you're welcome" when I hold the door for an unappreciative oblivion. I've come so close to getting my ass handed to me so many times but I manage to stay intact and injury free. I'm a strong proponent for confrontation when it's needed, and it sounds like it's needed in this situation.

 

Some of this attitude comes from personal experience. When I was being a punk in public, growing up in Oklahoma, there was no shortage of folks plenty willing and eager to stand up and I remember being confronted by some really pissed off adults - freaked me the hell out. It was these moments that I realized that adults can totally kick the shit out of me, in a really bad way - it's only a matter of pushing them into it. So I stopped pushing.

 

Sometimes they just need to be reminded of the proverbial stick. And that they are punks because we LET them be punks.

[Moontanman]

Where I live you can conceal carry a pistol to deal with a personal attack. Most aggressive assholes will hesitate to hassle someone they think can shoot them. Aggression is easy when you think the person you are hassling is helpless. Most people around here keep their pistols in their cars most of the time but I'm not adverse to taking it with me where ever I go, I wouldn't want to shoot anyone, lots of paper work involved, but if faced with the prospect of taking an ass whipping or pulling my gun i would pull my gun. Anyone who doesn't back down from a pistol probably needs to be shot. Of course I live where the legal defense of "he needed killin" is a viable defense in court. ;)On the bright side the number of people who actually get shot by citizens with pistol permits is almost nonexistent.

[iNow]

I'm a strong proponent for confrontation when it's needed, and it sounds like it's needed in this situation.

 

Some of this attitude comes from personal experience. When I was being a punk in public, growing up in Oklahoma, there was no shortage of folks plenty willing and eager to stand up and I remember being confronted by some really pissed off adults - freaked me the hell out. It was these moments that I realized that adults can totally kick the shit out of me, in a really bad way - it's only a matter of pushing them into it. So I stopped pushing.

 

Sometimes they just need to be reminded of the proverbial stick. And that they are punks because we LET them be punks.

Couldn't agree more. I'd have likely gone over and shown them what provocation can result in... If for no other reason than it's been a while since I've delivered a well deserved ass kicking.

[Phi for All]

First, what is "pretty young"? 17? 13? 10?

 

Second, what is a "pack of bin bags"? The references I found on line referred to some kind of shoulder tote like a purse, but I have no idea what a pack of them looks like, or why it would be a threatening projectile.

 

Third, I like the idea of very loudly declaring that singling one person out for torment doesn't work when EVERYBODY is sick to death of punk juvenile, terrorist-like behavior. I'll bet you'd have several people at your side real quickly.

 

And last, pulling a gun in anything but a life-threatening situation is just begging for a life-threatening situation.

[Moontanman]

 

And last, pulling a gun in anything but a life-threatening situation is just begging for a life-threatening situation.

 

I never suggested pulling a gun for shits and giggles, that's a very good way to loose your permit, but if threatened severely I would pull mine, I don't see a reason to wait until I'm bleeding on the ground.

[DrDNA]

I never suggested pulling a gun for shits and giggles, that's a very good way to loose your permit, but if threatened severely I would pull mine, I don't see a reason to wait until I'm bleeding on the ground.

 

Kids throwing rocks does in no way, shape or manner equate to "an overwhelming preponderance of force".

 

So, bleed away and rot in hell.

And then prepare yourself and your family for you to spend the remainder of your life behind bars.

 

If you actually do have a CCW permit and, after taking the CCW course still believe differently, you just plain didn't get the point of 95% of that course and/or whoever passed you in that course was neglect in their instructional duties.

 

Unless you are successful in convincing differently, you appear to be the poster child that gives the anti-second amendment crowd fuel to their flame.

Edited April 1, 2009 by DrDNA

[abskebabs]

First, what is "pretty young"? 17? 13? 10?

 

Second, what is a "pack of bin bags"? The references I found on line referred to some kind of shoulder tote like a purse, but I have no idea what a pack of them looks like, or why it would be a threatening projectile.

 

I wasn't paying that much attention, but if I was to guess I'd say around 10 to 13 was the age of the kid who tried throwing stuff at me, I aasume the others were around the same age but I'm not sure.

 

What I should have said is a roll of binbags, not a packet. Not a threatening projectile, but it didn't seem he was throwing it out of jest.

 

I suppose my actions to just ignore them and walk might have been a bit cowardly, but if I was to do something I didn't know what I could do that would be effective, appropriate and not get me into trouble.

 

It's weird because I've got a place a teaching student associate so managing bad behaviour in a classroom should be something I should be able to deal with.

 

I've had this kind of thing happen to me once before to a worse extent when I was a charity fundraiser, but again the first thing that worried me was about the trouble I could get into and partly I didn't want to dirty the charity's name. I suppose cowardice could have been a factor.

[Royston]

I suppose my actions to just ignore them and walk might have been a bit cowardly, but if I was to do something I didn't know what I could do that would be effective, appropriate and not get me into trouble.

 

There isn't anything you can do, but walk away in this instance. Having some bin bags (garbage bags) thrown at you, isn't really cause for retaliation...they're just being ignorant little pricks, trying to provoke a response. Responding, will be giving them what they want...and they'll either run off (most likely shouting abuse in the process) or try and up the stakes, by seeing what else they can get away with. Either way, it's not worth the hassle...so you took the sensible option. It's highly unlikely they'll want to sit down and discuss the situation rationally.

 

Yes, it is frustrating feeling you're being intimidated, just walking down the street, and there's always lots of things that run through your mind, of what you wish you'd done at the time e.g (I wish I'd constructed that flamethrower, for just this occasion.) If it becomes a regular occurence, that's when it's worth taking action of some sort. This happend in our area, and the local community had had enough, so the problem was sorted. Rest easy, in that they may pick on the wrong person in the near future.

[Moontanman]

Kids throwing rocks does in no way, shape or manner equate to "an overwhelming preponderance of force".

 

So, bleed away and rot in hell.

And then prepare yourself and your family for you to spend the remainder of your life behind bars.

 

If you actually do have a CCW permit and, after taking the CCW course still believe differently, you just plain didn't get the point of 95% of that course and/or whoever passed you in that course was neglect in their instructional duties.

 

Unless you are successful in convincing differently, you appear to be the poster child that gives the anti-second amendment crowd fuel to their flame.

 

Don't be an asshole Doc, I never suggested such a thing, I said severely threatened, a kid throwing rocks is not a sever threat. I know the law, evidently better than you, drawing a weapon can only be done if you are in fear of your life or sever bodily harm. a punk that threatens to kick my ass is not threat unless I can't get away. You have to equate your response with the threat. If were to draw my gun and the threat didn't go away then we would be in the realm of what to do, allowing someone to take your gun and shoot you with it kinda negate the idea of carrying a gun doesn't it? So if I had to pull my gun it would only be if I was really willing to shoot. Scare tactics are for bull shit artists. Very few people ever know i am armed and that's the way i like it.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

If you keep up this argument style I'll have to pull out my moderator pistol and threaten both of you. There's no need to get angry, guys.

[lakmilis]

LMAO.. that moontanman loon classic... can it be any other country....

 

 

LOL .. really w00tles

[Phi for All]

There's no need to get angry, guys.

There's nothing wrong with angry, unless it leads you into a personal attack. No more name calling, please.

 

I made the comment, "pulling a gun in anything but a life-threatening situation is just begging for a life-threatening situation" as a clarification of Moontanman's point, "most aggressive assholes will hesitate to hassle someone they think can shoot them". I didn't want it to stand as a response to abskebabs query about being hassled by kids, since I place quite a distance between "hassled" and "severely threatened". I didn't mean to imply any wrecklessness with my comment. I purposely didn't quote Moontanman for this very reason. The statement I made was a general one, but apparently didn't come off as such.

[lakmilis]

btw, abskebabs, which uni you at? (include country please.. ^^)

[Norman Albers]

In Oregon we have certain rights to defend ourselves, and I need to know more about these boundaries.

[DrDNA]

My point is that this statement(s)......

Where I live you can conceal carry a pistol to deal with a personal attack.

 

 

>>I wouldn't want to shoot anyone, lots of paper work involved, but if faced with the prospect of taking an ass whipping or pulling my gun i would pull my gun. Anyone who doesn't back down from a pistol probably needs to be shot.

 

...is outside the boundary of proper firearm use.

 

A human life vs filling out "paperwork"????

 

Besides being just plain wrong, you'll spend your life in prison and/or get sued into oblivion for shooting someone simply because they gave you an "ass whipping".

 

A good old fashioned "ass whipping" is far from sufficient, even if the whipper is 5 times your size and has a bat.

 

I know the law, evidently better than you,...

That is highly unlikely.

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

If you keep up this argument style I'll have to pull out my moderator pistol and threaten both of you. There's no need to get angry, guys.

 

"Angry"?

In no way shape or form.

[ParanoiA]

...is outside the boundary of proper firearm use.

 

A good old fashioned "ass whipping" is far from sufficient, even if the whipper is 5 times your size and has a bat.

 

Not to be misunderstood, I totally agree with your intent here, to call out immature, dangerous gun totting sentiment.

 

But I don't agree with the detail here. An ass whipping from a dude 5 times my size, with a bat, is quite sufficient for me to end his life. Not without all due warnings, but certainly sufficient. A guy with a bat, even smaller than me, can kill me fairly quickly. Not sure I'd even get in a mess like that, though, since I believe in picking and choosing your battles.

[DrDNA]

But I don't agree with the detail here. An ass whipping from a dude 5 times my size, with a bat, is quite sufficient for me to end his life. Not without all due warnings, but certainly sufficient. A guy with a bat, even smaller than me, can kill me fairly quickly. Not sure I'd even get in a mess like that, though, since I believe in picking and choosing your battles.

 

I agree and stand corrected.

You are correct about the detail regarding the baseball bat wielded by the 5x bigger guy....under certain circumstances unless there is any other alternative, such as an escape route.

 

And, no matter the circumstances, one must be prepared for their future to be ruined, even if it was done to save their own life.

If you injure or kill someone, no matter what the circumstances, it is highly probable that you will be arrested and charged with a crime.

The police will not make the assumption that you acted in self-defense or make judgments of right or wrong; the courts will decide that.

There is a high probability that you will sued in civil court by the deceased's family.

 

To clarify:

Statutes that define the legitimate use of force in self defense vary from state to state, but the general rule makes a clear and important distinction between the use of physical force and deadly physical force.

For example, in many jurisdictions, a person may use physical force to prevent imminent physical injury.

However, a person may not use deadly physical force unless that person is in reasonable fear of serious physical injury or death.

 

Furthermore, many statutes regarding self defense law also include a 'duty to retreat' clause.

So, in those jurisdictions, deadly physical force may only be used if the person acting in self defense is unable to safely retreat except for the "castle exception" ("a man's home is his castle" and he does not have to retreat in it).

 

Also, an important limit is that the level of response must not exceed the threat. This is fuzzy, but it is the way that most self defense laws are written.

 

If a 'victim' uses excessive force, they become the aggressor and force becomes excessive when it exceeds that which is necessary to assure one's own safety.

 

Some jurisdictions state that it is the duty of the person threatened to use all prudent and precautionary measures to prevent the attack.

 

Also, "no man is allowed to defend himself with force if he can apply to the law for redress, and the law gives him a complete remedy."

 

So, if it can be shown that you could have called the cops and avoided the whole situation, you will be perceived as taking the law into your own hands, and you can expect to spend a long time in jail.

 

A few states have enacted "no duty to retreat" (like the "castle exception" without the house) statutes.

In these jurisdictions, a person has the right to stand ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if they reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm.

Edited April 3, 2009 by DrDNA

[Norman Albers]

Thanks for an important discussion. I know a very small-framed woman who had to shoot and kill a man holding a chainsaw chain wrapped around her boyfriend's neck. He was also a small-framed person.

[Moontanman]

My point is that this statement(s)......

 

...is outside the boundary of proper firearm use.

 

A human life vs filling out "paperwork"????

 

I was being sarcastic, don't you have a sense of humor?

 

Besides being just plain wrong, you'll spend your life in prison and/or get sued into oblivion for shooting someone simply because they gave you an "ass whipping".

 

Not true in my state, if i am armed and I am acosted I can defend my self after giving fair warning. You are wrong.

 

 

A good old fashioned "ass whipping" is far from sufficient, even if the whipper is 5 times your size and has a bat.

 

BS

That is highly unlikely.

Again BS

 

 

In some states you can kill to defend property, no fear of death or injury is required, you can actually kill someone simply because you caught them stealing. Now personally i wouldn't kill to protect property but I would to protect life and limb. If you think that shooting some who is threating you with bodily harm, after a warning, you can't just pull a gun and shoot, will land you in jail you are misinformed. It's complex but one thing for sure if I was really in fear of my life the other guy would die. I honestly have never seen anyone go to court much less jail if they follow the rules.