Somali Pirate Standoff

[Lan(r)12]

It does iNow...look how hard it is to stabilize the US's economy. We are in no position to be going around trying to start up a third world countries economy, tho I wish we could.

 

Do you have an "effective solution" ?

[Syntho-sis]

blow em all to hell...and let god sort em out..

 

can't talk to criminals

[iNow]

That's sounds a lot more expensive than arming our ships.

 

Well, if you'll premit, I didn't say we had to solve, or try to fix it all by ourselves. My suggestion was simply that we start there, as rereading of my previous post bears out.

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And no, this would be easily solvable if I were a cold heartless person.

 

If you were truly a cold, heartless person, then you'd also realize that this issue with piracy is objectively minimal and not worth much of our time or concern.

 

Honestly, when you look at this coldly, you realize that the death of a few sailors and the cost of a tiny fraction of the material goods we transport are not worth the huge armory and protection costs you suggest (everyone with guns, teams of trained killers aboard every ship, artillery ships as escorts for every vessel, etc.).

 

I'm just saying, if your intent is to apply logic in a cold and heartless fashion, then at least follow it through to the more logical and easy solution.

Edited April 13, 2009 by iNow
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[Lan(r)12]

dam youre sensitive about reason, iNow

 

My heartless approach was the first part.

 

My human approach was the latter part. I didnt feel the need to explicitly state that I was switching sides...maybe I should have, I dont know.

 

And not escort ships or trained killers...just a well-armed/trained security detail.

[SH3RL0CK]

The best solution would be to convoy these ships with a destroyer or two (or whatever force is necessary) for protection. I don't care what the Somalis have, the world is going to be able to out-gun them at sea. Simply don't let their boats anywhere near the merchant ships.

 

Since the nations with blue-water navies are already there, the additional costs would probably be minimal, the problem of course would be the time lost for the shipping companies. That and we would have to make sure we form up the convoys far enough away (at the Suez canal would be easy, but I'm not sure where the logical convoy formation points would be elsewhere in the Indian ocean).

[iNow]

The best solution would be to convoy these ships with a destroyer or two (or whatever force is necessary) for protection.

 

<...>

 

Since the nations with blue-water navies are already there, the additional costs would probably be minimal

Well, let's see some numbers. I get the sense that you have absolutely no clue just how many merchant ships are really out there. If we were talking about a dozen or so boats, then fine. This solution is possible. After that, not so much.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

"Convoy" implies grouping the merchant ships together. Do that and you might get their numbers down to a reasonable size.

 

If only we had the 600-ship Navy of the 80s...

[SH3RL0CK]

How large could the convoys become? I would imagine it possible to convoy thousands of ships at a time...so that eventually there would be sufficient Naval vessels for protection.

 

Granted, with this many ships, the perimeter becomes larger and harder to watch and defend. However, it only becomes larger as the radius squared, whereas the number of ships becomes larger as radius to the 3rd power...thus being more efficient to protect overall. At some point, I would think there would be enough naval ships to effectively protect the merchant ships in the middle.

 

But I'd also like to point out that in the vastness of the ocean, a convoy of ships has about the same size as a single ship. By setting up convoys, we also make it much more difficult for the pirates to find the ships (assuming radio silence is also maintained). Instead of thousands of locations for ships, the place where the ships can be found is now reduced to only a few.

[Baby Astronaut]

I cant believe the pirates were stupid enough to let all three of themselves be exposed...did they not know that there would be snipers just waiting to take them out?

 

did pirates essentially just declare war on the U.S and France? That sounds ridiculous...

 

You're treating the symptom and not the cause....

Like most people from a third world nation, whose attempts to visualize the structure/processes of 1st world nations results in a severely distorted image, the pirates are lacking a huge sense of perspective. Unlike the many of us here who've attended over a dozen years of schooling, watched video programs of the great strength of U.S. armed forces (including Navy Seals), have access to libraries and a great many resources of knowledge -- yet occasionally still manage to be duped by politicians and their media networks' falsifications of everyday life -- most of the pirate recruits get their info with even less accuracy points than a game of Whisper Down the Lane.

 

So iNow did make a valid point. Several years ago an unusual news clip snatched our interests about pirates on a speedboat taking loot from a bigger ship. Then the miserable people of a rundown nation heard tales of an easy way to alleviate poverty, and it's become a fad among some of those who can even get access to the proper resources: boats, guns, navigation know-how.

 

Could they measure the risks and fully deduce what they're all getting into eventually? I'll have to guess daily survival and food on the table (or shack floor) is probably a more urgent thought.

 

And, conversely, a good many people who live in a more comfortable system lack a sense of perspective when attempting to visualize the lack of structure/processes/foundations in a third world nation (and the conditions that help sustain the wretched antics of pirates/looters).

 

Lastly, equipping ships with armadas is not only too expensive, but counterproductive -- for we all know the best defense against pirates is.... a contingent of ninjas.

[Pangloss]

What I'm wondering now is whether this will push the United States or other nations into more aggressively dealing with piracy at its source, a la "shores of Tripoli."

 

True. We're a bit tied up with with the walls of Montezuma.

 

(sorry)

 

BTW, speaking of the Marine Hymn, you guys noticed name of the US destroyer that rescued Captain Phillips, right? It's a masterful bit of irony.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bainbridge_(DDG-96)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bainbridge

Edited April 14, 2009 by Pangloss
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[Baby Astronaut]

Fixed your link.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bainbridge_(DDG-96)

[Pangloss]

Thanks!

[padren]

The pirates seem a little upset:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/13/somalia.pirates.revenge/

 

The pirates told a Somali journalist that they were angered by the U.S. action, as well as a French raid Friday that killed two pirates and one hostage and freed four hostages.

 

"We have decided to kill U.S. and French sailors if they happen to be among our future hostages," said Abdullahi Ahmed, a member of a pirate group based at Harardhere, a coastal town in central Somalia.

 

Though honestly, I think it's just bravado. Hostages are the only thing that keeps pirates alive - all they learned is that this isn't a guarantee. I have to admit it's hard to understand how pirates of all people could fail to grasp that "when you point guns at people you may die" and getting all broken up about it is pointless. Talk about an entitlement complex.

[bascule]

I thought Obama did a great job handling this. No Bush-style granstanding, trying to take credit for what the Navy Seals did, although behind the scenes Obama was instrumental. Once it was dealt with, he went straight back to working on the economy.

 

Meanwhile, Republicans like Newt Gingrich were knocking him: "Obama is making a major mistake in not forcefully outlining the rules of civilization for dealing with pirates. We look weak."

[Mr Skeptic]

The pirates seem a little upset:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/13/somalia.pirates.revenge/

 

From your link

"The killing of our boys was aggression, and the U.S. will see what they get from their operation," he said.

 

:doh:

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Incidentally, why are pirates roaming free, talking to reporters, identifying bodies, etc.?

[Dudde]

The pirates seem a little upset:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/13/somalia.pirates.revenge/

 

 

 

Though honestly, I think it's just bravado. Hostages are the only thing that keeps pirates alive - all they learned is that this isn't a guarantee. I have to admit it's hard to understand how pirates of all people could fail to grasp that "when you point guns at people you may die" and getting all broken up about it is pointless. Talk about an entitlement complex.

 

 

Hey, you link stealer! Wait maybe I didn't post that I don't remember..I could scroll up, but I don't think I'm gonna. I doubt the pirates will get many more chances to play with American hostages after this, especially since the armed forces are considering taking to the shoreline to help put a stop to it there:

 

CNN says

 

I thought Obama did a great job handling this. No Bush-style granstanding, trying to take credit for what the Navy Seals did, although behind the scenes Obama was instrumental. Once it was dealt with, he went straight back to working on the economy.

 

I agree completely with this - while the scenario was unfolding, I actually was predicting the captain dying while communications went sour, or during an attempt to just bash in on the pirates like at night (toss a flashbang up at 0200 and have 4 SEALs pop out of the water to finish up)

 

that said, I think the final outcome was a pretty big relief for a huge number of people, I doubt anybody expected something remotely like this

[iNow]

This evening, The Daily Show commented on the issue, and mentioned that there was a theme song which seemed strangely relevant.

 

(Warning: Adult Language)

[Pangloss]

"We need a mon-tage!"

 

No Bush-style granstanding, trying to take credit for what the Navy Seals did

 

When did Bush try to take credit for something the Navy Seals did? I must have missed that one.

[Dudde]

It's kind of funny, but not really, that the pirates tried to attack a second U.S ship too, but luckily failed to get onboard.

 

CNN

 

The annoying part is that they keep attacking ships that have supplies for Africa that we're sending over, I would think that the people in Africa would get mad and try to put a stop to this, but then again, they probably don't have a lot of ways to get news around

[John Cuthber]

They may get the news round well enough, but the pirates have guns.

[bascule]

When did Bush try to take credit for something the Navy Seals did? I must have missed that one.

 

I was saying if Obama tried to take credit, it'd be similar to Bush style grandstanding. I hope I really don't need to demonstrate what I mean by Bush-style grandstanding, but it's not too hard:

 

 

 

Obama doesn't swing that way.