religeon or nation

[invisiblebrain]

there has always been a problem with this one.

 

a person has two diffrent entities in his mind

 

1.religeon

 

2.nation

 

so when it gets between these two choices what should a person choose?

 

why should he choose his nation(as most of us would expect)

 

or why should he choose his religeon

[NSX]

It's spelled religion, and I don't see why the 2 can't be compatible.

[Phi for All]

For instance, when your country drafts you involuntarily into the military and your religion forbids taking a human life? Or when your country implies that patriotism means hating someone who is not from your country, and your religion compels you to love your fellow humans, no matter where they come from?

 

There are ways to personally separate church and state. You can love your country without loving everything it does. And you can follow your religion without being blind to its weaknesses as well.

 

This is how both religions and nations can grow to be better.

[Glider]

Or when your country implies that patriotism means hating someone who is not from your country, and your religion compels you to love your fellow humans, no matter where they come from?

That would be nationalism.

 

Patriotism = Loving one's own country

Nationalism = Hating everyone else's

[invisiblebrain]

then why dont people understand this simple logic and remain blindbelievers??????

[atinymonkey]

Blind believers ignoring which simple logic?

[fafalone]

Of course if Bush gets reelected, you won't have to choose between religion and nation.

[Phi for All]

As I'm learning in other threads, one of the biggest problems with religion is the tendency to consider your beliefs sacred, which keeps them from evolving since you never hold them up for criticism. I think we make this mistake with our political beliefs as well, not acknowledging that politics changes hundreds of times faster than religious doctrines do. Political expediency needs to spin public opinion on an almost daily basis depending on where the money and power lies (and I do mean lies).

 

After spending eight years and untold millions of dollars trying to persuade the American public that Clinton was a diabolical monster, this is what the Republican party had to say about the United States it was taking control of at the beginning of GW Bush's administration:

 

"The Twenty-First Century opens with unique promise for the United States. Democratic values are celebrated on every continent. The productivity and ingenuity of American business are the envy of the world. American innovation is leading the way in the information age. New technology speeds an exchange of ideas that often bear the mark of American inspiration. No other great power challenges American international preeminence. There is every reason for Americans to be extraordinarily optimistic about their future."

 

Now, of course, with everything from employment to foreign policy to national debt in some of the worst shape this country has ever seen, the GOP is back to kicking their favorite dog, BJ Billy. And don't get me wrong, I don't think the Democrats are any better than the Republicans. I'm only registered as a Democrat so I can vote in the primaries, something that is denied Independents in this country. I think the two-party system sucks because the spin makes everyone believe their vote is wasted unless they choose either Republican or Democrat. Why does the two-party system still exist? So big business only has to buy two candidates to insure 100% cooperation with their agendas.

 

Many religions also ask us to make a choice and stick with it no matter what. We are ostracized if we question the doctrines imposed by our religious leaders, yet we've seen occasions when religious principles seem to change suddenly after centuries of denial when public opinion becomes too uncomfortable to deal with (OK, you don't HAVE to abstain from eating meat every Friday, from now on just Ash Wednesday and every Friday during Lent...).

 

We need to keep questioning blind faith, whether in religion or politics, in order to protect ourselves from being deluded by our leaders. I'm not saying they are all bad people, I'm just saying that we make things too easy for them when we never question them. If we always accept everything they say without question, they could say just about anything:

 

"I appreciate that question because I, in the state of Texas, had heard a lot of discussion about a faith-based initiative eroding the important bridge between Church and State." GW Bush Jr, Washington, D.C., January 29, 2001

 

"Islam was founded by Mohammed, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives -- and his last one was a 9-year-old girl." Jerry Vines, pastor, First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, FL (after being praised by President Bush Jr for religious tolerance).

 

"The legislature's job is to write law. It's the executive branch's job to interpret law." GW Bush Jr, Austin TX, November 22, 2000

 

"... in the creationist's view, the carving of the Canyon would have taken place when the sedimentary layers were still soft, allowing the catastrophic erosion process to quickly and easily cut through the layers." Tom Vail, minister, Canyon Ministries, in his book Grand Canyon: A Different View, currently sold by the US Parks Dept in Grand Canyon Book stores.

 

"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program." GW Bush Jr, St. Charles, MO., November 2, 2000

 

Ultimately, we need to choose religion (or more properly spirituality) AND pride in our nation (or what our nation could become) because they are both vitally important to our well-being. Both give us a sense of where we stand with regard to morals, integrity, love, duty and everything that makes life more than just a routine. Taking a stand and then tempering that stand as we grow in understanding leads us away from cynicism and apathy.

 

It's way too easy not to care, and way more interesting when we do.

[budullewraagh]

what about individualism? i dont care what nation i'm from. i am a freelance philosopher.

[Phi for All]

1.religeon

 

2.nation

 

so when it gets between these two choices what should a person choose?

what about individualism? i dont care what nation i'm from. i am a freelance philosopher.

The original question in the thread doesn't allow for individualism. It asks for opinion based on limited choices.

[budullewraagh]

The original question in the thread doesn't allow for individualism. It asks for opinion based on limited choices.

you don't say...

[YT2095]

personaly I`m a good combo of the two, I`m nationalist ,although I don`t "hate all others" as stated in post #4, just some.

My beliefs (religion) incorporate the spirits of my ancestors also, Many were English.

and so I don`t see any conflict here with either

[Phi for All]

I could be wrong here, but I think invisiblebrain's original question was meant to ask us where our ethics would lead us were we to be faced with a situation where our patriotism conflicted with our spiritual beliefs.

 

For instance, what would you do if a member of al-Qaeda bombed a building you were in. No one else was hurt but you are trapped beneath some wreckage. The terrorist then enters the building, pulls you from the wreckage and saves your life, explaining that this was the first time he'd done something like that and realizes now he was misguided. He asks that you forgive him and not report him to the authorities if he agrees to leave al-Qaeda if he can.

 

Do you forgive him if your spirituality tells you he is repentant and let him go free, or do you report him as an enemy of your country, following the laws of your nation?

[sickmusic]

As I'm a Muslim, Living in the UK.. its a bit more difficult.

 

Islam is a Religion as well as a Nation, where the defenition of nation I am using has nothing to do with Race, Colour, or status..

 

I am also British, and abide by British Law as I dont always agree to it, but I have respect for it.

 

First and foremost I must respect my Religious Laws - as the set of Religious laws I have to follow will have a greater impact on my future.. after I die basically.

 

I will also follow British law as long as it does not force me to compromise on my Religious Laws.

 

Thats one of the reasons I totally Respect British Law, as it allows Muslims to get on with their everyday lives., without compromise