Space/Time Universe

[southerncross]

Nothing by itself is nothing.

 

Nothing at one moment and nothing at the next moment in time are still nothing but now nothing is relative to something existing elsewhere.

 

When there is time there is space, and where there is a next moment in time there is next space.

 

This would mean every point in the universe is the same point , they act independantly because every frame of reference that we consider a point is HERE/NOW relative to that point. (i.e. the only fundamental point is nothingness)

 

So is it possible that time makes space, that space makes energy, that energy makes matter and matter makes you and me?

 

 

Every point is HERE/NOW, there is no past and future apart from a memory or a wish.

Every space is the same space (here)

Every moment is the same moment (now)

 

 

To exist in space/time, you must be relative to one of the here/now points that make it up. (a place/moment we call here/now in space/time, space being all the places and time being all the moments)

 

You are here/now (nothingness), all other points are existing independantly eleswhere even though they also are you.

 

Looking at the universe this way will give you greater insights to science I am sure.

[iNow]

Tautologies don't tend to be very helpful in scientific research and study.

[Reaper]

To the OP:

 

And your point is?

[Martin]

Astro is a mathematical science. In cosmology one makes models that you can fit data to, or compare with observations. The description of reality is not purely verbal.

 

Southerncross' descriptions are often strikingly beautiful as poetry, but don't qualify as astronomy or cosmology. So I moved the thread here. It is the most suitable category we have, comes the closest. A special forum for "Visionary Philosophy and Poetic Mysticism" might be more appropriate but we don't have one.

 

S+, the quality of your contributions is high. I personally enjoy, am occasionally moved, and encourage you to contribute more.

 

I remember one time you compared Time to the cross upon which our savior was crucified---something about nails. It made an indelible impression. Your poetic meditations are almost if not quite publishable. Go for it! As far as I am concerned I wish you deep and intense inspiration.

And I respect literary aptitude like yours. Just please keep it out of astro/cosmo.

[southerncross]

I have never had religious or supernatural beleifs poetic or otherwise, I have no idea what your talking about saviour was crucified and nails, check your facts that was not me.

 

Points on opposite sides of the universe are connected, this is not mysticism, it is all to easy to dimiss what you don't understand.

 

inow you have put up very little if any arguements ever to me, your not being helpfull.

[iNow]

You, of course, meant "you're," not "your."

Cheers.

[Martin]

beleifs poetic or otherwise, I have no idea what your talking about saviour was crucified and nails, check your facts that was not me.

...

 

In that case my bad! I must have confused you with some other person, whose writing style I admired (but it was poetry rather than scientific discourse).

 

I will check back, not because I doubt what you say, but because I'm curious.

I may not be able to find the post. Hmmm. I found something but I could well have misinterpreted and gotten a faulty impression!

Where is here and when is now, is it not the relationship between points of space-time that have any meaning? Am I not only -here and now- in relation to other points?

That is it is not possible to be here and now without a relationship, without being relative to some other here and now. The question is what is the difference between one here and now and another here and now?

 

...

...

By blocking the expansions from 0 with matter X would you not get gravity?

 

Nothing by itself is nothing but is nothing having a relationship with itself at different moments (moments in balance with one another) giving space and time a reality?

 

QUANTUM?

If there is an observer, would that observation not reset 0 at the point of observation?

 

NOTHING?

 

Is this not just a place holder for something? That is doesn’t here and now (space and time) not even exist except in the relationship.

 

Crazy crazy stuff, nails go in each hand and one big one through both feet.

 

To me this is a striking image because the space (x) and time (t) axes make a kind of cross, upon which reality is affixed. I am not criticizing. I am offering praise. this is, as I see it, visionary writing infused with deep excitement and feeling. It is exactly what I imagine as proper to this particular subforum. There was another passage of yours I thought was striking and beautiful:

 

O... then more energy is still coming from its original source.

 

From somewhere else?

 

A doorway from some other place opens for an arbitrary moment and an arbitrary amount of energy is sent through then the doorway closes. This creates an arbitrary sized place that expands and becomes less dense over time.

 

Or

 

A doorway opens from somewhere else and stays open letting energy pour in creating space in equilibrium with energy.

 

...

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And there was what you just said:

...

Points on opposite sides of the universe are connected, this is not mysticism, it is all to easy to dimiss what you don't understand.

...

 

To call an assertion (evidently inspired with certainty, but not based on empirical evidence) visionary or mystical is not to dismiss it.

 

I do not dismiss. I appreciate. And I wish to be clear about categories of human endeavor. What you are doing is not science, and does not belong in the Astro/Cosmo forum. But that doesn't mean it is bad or wrong in any way. I see it as an important human function. Call it what you want: conceptual art, spiritual philosophy, poetry, prophesy, inspired certainty, inspired utterance, the search for meaning in existence, the search for profound paradox in existence, or make up your own name. Or do not name what you do at all.

As I see it, this is an essential non-science activity, to be appreciated and not under any circumstances dismissed.

 

The flip side is that it could be characterized as portentous and adroit obfuscation. But let's not go there.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Martin
Consecutive posts merged.

[southerncross]

I hope you have satisfied your need to feel justified now, the topic a year on is at the top of the page.

[throng]

Nothing by itself is nothing.

 

Nothing at one moment and nothing at the next moment in time are still nothing but now nothing is relative to something existing elsewhere.

 

When there is time there is space, and where there is a next moment in time there is next space.

 

This would mean every point in the universe is the same point , they act independantly because every frame of reference that we consider a point is HERE/NOW relative to that point. (i.e. the only fundamental point is nothingness)

 

So is it possible that time makes space, that space makes energy, that energy makes matter and matter makes you and me?

 

 

Every point is HERE/NOW, there is no past and future apart from a memory or a wish.

Every space is the same space (here)

Every moment is the same moment (now)

 

 

To exist in space/time, you must be relative to one of the here/now points that make it up. (a place/moment we call here/now in space/time, space being all the places and time being all the moments)

 

You are here/now (nothingness), all other points are existing independantly eleswhere even though they also are you.

 

Looking at the universe this way will give you greater insights to science I am sure.

 

In terms of perspective there past in the distance, but in terms of perception events are simultaneous, as light is the information perceived.

 

If a star exploded and one observer was one million light years and the other two million light years away, by perspective they'd observe one million years apart, but by perception, simultaneouslt. There's like a relation between perspective and perception that stretches time, because that measured in this moment is infinitely relative, and justified by infinite comparison.

 

The ends are the same, so the middle has to fit.

[rudolfhendrique]

Nothing by itself is nothing.

 

Nothing at one moment and nothing at the next moment in time are still nothing but now nothing is relative to something existing elsewhere.

 

When there is time there is space, and where there is a next moment in time there is next space.

 

This would mean every point in the universe is the same point , they act independantly because every frame of reference that we consider a point is HERE/NOW relative to that point. (i.e. the only fundamental point is nothingness)

 

So is it possible that time makes space, that space makes energy, that energy makes matter and matter makes you and me?

 

 

Every point is HERE/NOW, there is no past and future apart from a memory or a wish.

Every space is the same space (here)

Every moment is the same moment (now)

 

 

To exist in space/time, you must be relative to one of the here/now points that make it up. (a place/moment we call here/now in space/time, space being all the places and time being all the moments)

 

You are here/now (nothingness), all other points are existing independantly eleswhere even though they also are you.

 

Looking at the universe this way will give you greater insights to science I am sure.

 

Maybe this video will make any sence for you. I have the same ideas as you have..

 

 

 

[GutZ]

too bad that video is WRONG.

[southerncross]

I don’t have all the answers but it seems to make sense that nothing is the only alternative to a supernatural answer for what the universe is made of. I can except that time alone is a natural occurrence “that just is”, that it moves as a wave and that the area (of nothing) within the bell curves of this wave is space. To marry the quantum and the classical world, if I may be so bold, what I suggest is an incredibly simple idea that all moments are the same moment (now) in time and all places are the same place (here) in space, of and in the individual bell curves of space/time. The struggle to understand I believe comes from our language, perspective/existence within the crests and troughs (loops of energy/matter?) of the time-wave, is the same moment and place at different times. Consider I am saying there is only one moment at different times, a failure of language not logic.

 

Every point, empty space, physical matter or physiological cognition is the exact same point but with an individual existence/perspective. The individuals are moving, interacting, combining, experiencing as separate entities but they all are the same point.

[granpa]

why did the universe have to come from nothing? why not from everything?

[cperkinson]

I STRONGLY AGREE. I damn near killed myself via mental breakdown because i grasped the entirety of this during my senior year of highschool (worse two weeks of my life)... I understand it fully, the entire realization so to speak. Everything is nothing and nothing is everything. No matter what happens there will be an equal and opposite reaction. So at exactly noon tomorrow everything in an adverse universe will have an equally opposite existance. With that being said i would like anyone reading this to read my thread in the relativity section. GREAT PIECE I THINK.

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why did the universe have to come from nothing? why not from everything?

 

nothing is everything... and everything is nothing. They coexist!

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Originally Posted by southerncross

"O... then more energy is still coming from its original source.

 

From somewhere else?

 

A doorway from some other place opens for an arbitrary moment and an arbitrary amount of energy is sent through then the doorway closes. This creates an arbitrary sized place that expands and becomes less dense over time.

 

Or

 

A doorway opens from somewhere else and stays open letting energy pour in creating space in equilibrium with energy.

 

... "

 

MY RESPONSE: BLACK HOLES!

[bombus]

It has been speculated that matter creates a drag on the expansion of space. This drag causes time to slow around matter and that gravity is a result of this.

 

I wonder whether matter is purely a time differential in space. I.e. divisions/demarcations in spacetime.

[southerncross]

Before there was time=nothing.

(note:there may not have been before time)

 

One place and one moment is nothing=here and now.

 

Time is a wave and in all the crests and troughs of this wave are this one place and one moment.

 

The one place and the one moment are seperated in the wave by distance and time from the next one place and one time but they still are all the one place and one time.

 

One place and one time can be different in motion such as velocity, direction, rotation and spin but they still are all the one place and one time.

 

A loop in time, like a bubble in water, well you either see where I am going or you don't.

 

Nothing does not have to come from anywhere, the logic that the universe came from everything leaves the question where did everything come from?

 

If your arguement is not every point in the universe comes from nothing and is the same point acting seperately in time, then you have to have some proof because this is a more logical arguement.

[southerncross]

oh ok, lets not even consider every place in the universe is completely seperate yet every place is the same place, a different place being different because it's at a different time.

 

And what is laughable is the only alternative you lot have ever come back with, wormholes in space.

 

Supernatural baloney, I may not be right but at least it is more feasible than wormholes.

 

You cannot occupy the same space as another space maybe because you cannot also occupy the same time. Points are not connected by 4th dimension wormholes, there is no connection but there may be exclusionary boundaries.

 

If you draw a wave you create places in the crests and troughs.

If time is a wave it creates places in the crests and troughs. AKA space.

And if the places are all the same perfect nothing then the places are all the same place.

 

I only ever came here to ask if there was a scientific reason why not and what alternative there is, i have my answer.