Merits of 'alternative' medicine (split from Fear of Western Medicine)

[JohnB]

A consistent theme in these stories is one of negligence, and the understanding that avoidance of western medicine is simply unreasonable and not acceptable, regardless of your system of beliefs.

I'd call it stupidity personally. And people seeing things in a Black/White, either/or fashion, which is unreasonable.

 

I happily go to an "alternative" therapist, for the simple reason that he can fix some things that western medicine can't. OTOH, if I get an infection and need antibiotics, I go straight to the quack and get some.

 

The correct course of treatment depends on what is wrong. It also means trying something different if the current treatment isn't working.

[Mokele]

I happily go to an "alternative" therapist, for the simple reason that he can fix some things that western medicine can't.

 

Like what? A nice dose of the placebo effect?

[JohnB]

Actually no. I have an L5 that prolapsed.

 

The only treatment on offer from western medicine was to remove the disc and fuse the vertebrae with the attendent loss of mobility, etc. The therapist was able to fix the problem. And yes, I have the CAT scans showing the initial damage.

 

We first went to him because my wife had torn the miniscus in both knees and was reduced to using walking sticks. (at age 28) We tried all western therapy for 6 months without effect. We were down to the final option of surgery and had seen the specialist about the operation when we were put onto this guy. He healed her in 10 days.

 

And to forstall any other snide remarks, we have the MRIs showing the damage and ones taken later showing no damage. It's called "evidence".

 

Whether you like it or not, his methods worked.

 

BTW, he doesn't claim to be able to fix everything and is not backward in sending people straight to the Dr if it's something he can't work on.

[Mokele]

Can you post these MRIs and CAT scans?

 

And what were his methods?

[john5746]

There is physical therapy in "western" medicine - sounds like this may be what you received. Basically relaxing, stretching, strengthening certain areas and allowing the body to heal itself. No magic there.

[SH3RL0CK]

There isn't a clear definition of "alternative" medicines. Some have a logical reason why they could work, while others are really insane. To be fair we should judge each "alternative" medicine on its own merits.

 

What JohnB is describing sounds like something people get from a chiropractor. This is one of the "alternative" medicines which often works (the treatments you get isn't much different than you would get from a physical therapist, IMO). Other "alternative" medicines people swear by includes the use of medical marijuana; again there are reasons to believe in this.

 

I wouldn't class the above "alternatives" with some of the really crazy ideas out there.

[The Bear's Key]

And to forstall any other snide remarks, we have the MRIs showing the damage and ones taken later showing no damage.

Yeah came out a bit snide. It's quite a typical outlook among professionals here (and I'm sure there) funneled into just an orthodox education. But a few medical practitioners I know of sometimes have OK'd alternative therapies without directly endorsing or rejecting them, as long as it doesn't interefere with treatment -- which is open-minded enough for me.

 

There is physical therapy in "western" medicine - sounds like this may be what you received. Basically relaxing, stretching, strengthening certain areas and allowing the body to heal itself. No magic there.

I wouldn't call it magic. My friend went for diabetic treatment (more like the pre-stages, no insulin shots required yet) and the medical practitioners were not very helpful in offering methods to control the disease except with medication alone. But the risk with that is dependency -- possibly leading to a quicker decline of the body's sugar-converting processes -- so my friend had one choice left: self-education, learning how to slow the progressive deterioration. It took a few years of research and sorting to finally take healthier control of the blood sugar and cut down medication* by at least 50% through a combination of exercise, diet (especially non-processed), and smarter portioning.

 

No calorie tracking. No tossing sugar out the window. No magic. Just sensible routines.

 

There isn't a clear definition of "alternative" medicines. Some have a logical reason why they could work, while others are really insane.

Definitely. Over half are likely quack. You really have to sort them out and/or consult with dependable, knowledgable people.

 

One such example who I view as fairly level-headed (and well-versed in herbs) is David Winston. Some indications of that is found in his Introduction to Herbal Medicine and brief points on Specific Indications.

 

You might agree or disagree.

 

To be fair we should judge each "alternative" medicine on its own merits.

I second that.

 

Although, it's often a bit difficult to verify accuracy -- even of fairly straightforward matters or claims. As one example, something I had posted on these forums about the validity of "bad" food combinations (linked to incompatible/rivaling digestive processes) has still not been verified or debunked.

[hide](*hint hint* )[/hide]

*approved by the doctor

Edited June 8, 2009 by The Bear's Key

[Sisyphus]

The thing is, there's a very good tool for objectively evaluating whether something actually works, which we call science. If it is subjected to this tool and is proved to work, the "alternative" gets dropped from "alternative medicine." And the only real reason for purposely avoiding scientific evaluation is if you already know or strongly suspect it doesn't work, and want to keep selling it anyway. So yeah, anything called "alternative medicine" is almost certainly just bullshit.

 

Of course, I guess that depends on your definitions. Certainly some herbal remedies are better than placebos, and you might call that alternative medicine, but generally that's just because they contain active ingredients that are considered medicine. And something like "a healthy lifestyle" isn't really "medicine," per se, and might be "an alternative" to specifically medical treatments, but again, that's something that can be and is scientifically evaluated by "medical science." So, you know, whatever.

 

And finally, there's the good old placebo effect. If I was a doctor, I would be happy to let my patients try anything they thought might work (without actually endorsing it), as long as it wasn't actually harmful or a replacement for real medicine. Why not? And hey, homeopathy, in sufficient quantities, can be a very effective treatment for dehydration.

[The Bear's Key]

The thing is, there's a very good tool for objectively evaluating whether something actually works, which we call science. If it is subjected to this tool and is proved to work, the "alternative" gets dropped from "alternative medicine." And the only real reason for purposely avoiding scientific evaluation is if you already know or strongly suspect it doesn't work, and want to keep selling it anyway.

You might be spot-on, or maybe certain areas of studies are more likely to get funding and/or be subsidized.

 

The post I linked to has nothing to do with alternative medicine, only body processes: in this case digestion...and how each type might interact with the other. I'd think a student of anatomy would be have perspective on it -- maybe there's none (students) in our membership -- regardless, even that post seems difficult to answer, though I'm sure digestion isn't one of the body's unsolved mysteries.

 

Yet the issue of food combinations does fall under alternative health, which is related in a way to alternative medicines but deals a lot with proper eating habits.

 

So I'll ask you. Can we deduce anything from our knowledge of how the body's digestive fluids work, or must we entirely depend 100% on a study because educated reasonings are complete nonsense?

 

I'd say just because it's not science (i.e. hasn't gotten test funding) doesn't mean we're entirely helpless to make practical decisions regarding something.

[Pangloss]

I wondered if maybe JohnB's therapist was legitimate but was just using certain catchy phrases like "alternative medicine" to drum up business.

 

If so it's a bit disheartening, but I guess understandable, and certainly doesn't bother me as much as if he were using crackpot methods and calling them legitimate medicine.

 

"You need homeopathy!"

"What's homeopathy?"

"I don't know, but Cindy says it's good for you! She knows these things -- she's had botox, you know."

[iNow]

The thing is, there's a very good tool for objectively evaluating whether something actually works, which we call science. If it is subjected to this tool and is proved to work, the "alternative" gets dropped from "alternative medicine." And the only real reason for purposely avoiding scientific evaluation is if you already know or strongly suspect it doesn't work, and want to keep selling it anyway. So yeah, anything called "alternative medicine" is almost certainly just bullshit.

 

Indeed. Here's a great talk with Dr. Michael Baum whom Richard Dawkins interviewed for his special

.

 

 

The full uncut interview with Michael Baum is available by playlist here:

 

 

For those without video access/ability:

 

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/264223

This interview contains a lot of very important information, regardless of how one feels about CAM [Complimentary and Alternative Medicine]. Professor Baum starts by explaining the difference between complementary and alternative medicine. For him, complementary medicine is everything that improves the quality of life of a patient undergoing medical treatments, possibly for life-threatening diseases such as breast cancer. Alternative medicine, on the other hand, seeks to replace scientific medicine. Says Michael Baum:

I'm obviously against alternative medicine, because to me, alternative, by definition, means it does not work. If it works, we would use it.

 

As an example of that, he cites a few medicines of herbal origin that are being used for cancer therapy such as vinca alkaloids form periwinkle and taxanes from yew trees.

 

<...>

 

Later on, they talk about what Baum politely calls "post-modern relativism," the idea that everything is but an opinion. I have an opinion, but you have read some other books and you have therefore another opinion and both opinions are equally valid. As a result, we have now alternative medicine, alternative teaching methods, alternative legal advocates, "but," he says "we haven't yet come up with an alternative Boeing 747 pilot".

 

He links this to the MMR vaccine crisis where people are being told by alternologists and are convinced that there is a conspiracy of the medical establishment and the government that, in order to protect themselves, they were willing to sacrifice countless children to autism. "This is simply a lie," he says, and he adds that even among his closest friends, there are people who are not immunizing their children and that these children are now unprotected as a result.

 

<...>

 

Dawkins asks Baum if he can cite a few examples of complementary/alternative therapies for which he does have time. Baum cites art therapy as an example of complementary therapy in which he has invested quite some time. He also cites acupuncture, which is bonkers as an alternative complementary medicine belief system but which does have some value as a complementary therapy, for example in pain management. Still, his belief doesn't seem to go very far.

 

He goes on giving an example of the importance of clinical trials and tells a story about how he was chairing a meeting in Florence, Italy on the role of CAM in the treatment of breast cancer. He was in serious pain at the time, so much so that he was limping. An acupuncturist offered him a treatment. The next day, he was completely without pain, and even visited the Uffizi gallery for a few hours. The interesting part is that she offered the treatment, but that he didn't accept it. Had he accepted it, the result would have been so spectacular that he would have become a convert. A nice illustration of the importance of controlled trials.

 

Baum is also telling Dawkins about how many alternologists always go back to some "golden age" of medicine, and argues that there is no such thing as a golden age of medicine in the past, that the golden age is now, and that it will become more golden if only science can continue. He gives the example of Victorian England where life expectancy was not much more than about 40 years and where 30% of the children died shortly after birth whereas now most children survive, and that we now have life expectancies of close to 80 years, leading us to work longer than in the past.

 

Dawkins and Baum talk about the importance of science education. Baum tells Dawkins that we have a scientifically illiterate population, a scientifically illiterate house of commons and, worse, that they actually take pride into their scientific illiteracy. Scientists have an important task here, he says, and children should be taught the scientific method from early secondary school in order to have a scientifically literate population. <

more at the link

>

[JohnB]

Sorry guys, I didn't realise the thread had been split.

 

Mokele, I'll dig them up and post them, they're in a cupboard somewhere as it was a few years ago.

 

He is trained in Chinese medicine and studied there for some years before returning to Australia to practice. He classes himself as a "Sports Therapist". His methods are not that different from those used by a physiotherapist. A lot of heat with manipulation. The main differences are the application of poultices which are made from Chinese herbs and some sort of herbal pill.

 

In the case of my L5, it bulges out and presses on the nerve running down my right leg. Something similar to sciatica I uderstand. Small damage, intense white hot pain. Seriously, I had a ruptured appendix and it was a doddle compared to this. When it first hit, I spent 2 days crawling around the house, it was impossible to stand or sit.

 

I recall reading somewhere that a new treatment is being tested for this condition that uses a laser to heat the disc. Apparently if the cartilage is heated enough it becomes maleable and can be reformed. It will then hold the new shape when it cools. It strikes me that this could be what he's doing. How the poultices effect the equation, I don't know.

 

The bottom line is that he can heal conditions that the local GPs can't and it seriously p*sses them off. They call him the "Witch Doctor". I find it odd that none of them seem interested in how he actually does it.

 

If you were booking a patient in for surgery one week and the next week they walk in cured, wouldn't you be a little bit interested in how that happened?

There is physical therapy in "western" medicine - sounds like this may be what you received. Basically relaxing, stretching, strengthening certain areas and allowing the body to heal itself. No magic there.

Agreed. In my wifes case we used those methods for months with zero effect. It was only when we changed methods that results were immediate and lasting. What is important to remember here is that we went to see the specialist who concluded from the MRIs that surgery was the only thing that would effect a cure.

 

He goes on giving an example of the importance of clinical trials

Is that why Thalidomide was declared a "safe" morning sickness drug? It of course helps if clinical trial data isn't faked, which does happen.

 

I think that one thing that gets forgotten is that nobody is going to spend the money on a clinical trial if they can't make a buck out of what is being trialled. A new patentable drug, sure, but a freely available unpatentable herbal concoction, nope.

 

Honey has been used as an antiseptic for millenia and is on the shelf for $5/kilo, but medicinal honey is $8/50 grams. The alternative guys are money grubbing quacks? Pot, kettle.

 

PS. Could a mod please delete my post number 11 as it is redundant. (Yes. - Cap'n Refsmmat)

Edited June 9, 2009 by Cap'n Refsmmat

[John Cuthber]

There are two sorts of medicine; the stuff that works and the alternative.

 

Before the thalidomide tragedy nobody though about teratogenicity testing. It was widely (though naively) believed that the placenta acted as a barrier to toxins. It doesn't make sense to use it as an example of "failed" testing because it wasn't tested.

 

The medical establishment is well aware that some problems only show up after clinical trials.

That's what sites like this

http://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/

are for.

 

Herbal medicine is, at least in some cases, not really "alternative". Morphine is still derived from poppies because it's easier and cheaper than synthesising it. The fact that you can't patent it hasn't stopped it being used.

[jdurg]

Also, when thalidomide came out, clinical trials were a LOT different than they are now. They were conducted in the age before computers were available for the use of clinical trials. Data obtained from the clinical trials was hand collated and the tables and listings that are used for the final analysis and reporting were VERY prone to human error. Plus, since there was no computer based "checking" of the data, there was no way to validate the data to ensure it was correct.

 

Due to the limitations of the data collection and analysis, clinical trials at the time generally collected FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR fewer datapoints than they do now. Thanks to computers and complex databases, you can collect a large amount of data, validate it on a daily basis to ensure it is correct, and analyze and report it in a very short time.

 

I work in the pharmaceutical industry on the data management of clinical trials. I oversee the setup of the data collection instruments, the data validation procedures, the clarification of questionable data, the documentation of all processes used, and much, much more. The clinical trials conducted today are so much more detailed and safer than what was around when Thalidomide came to market. It's almost frightening seeing how pharmaceuticals got to market back then.