can we replace the gas-guzzling SUV yet?

[gib65]

Have they invented fossil fuel free car yet? A car that runs on solar energy or electricity or something green?

 

I know the answer is obviously 'yes' but I'm wondering how much milage can one get out of it and how cheap is it to use and maintain? In other words, would it be to the advantage of the average consumer to purchase one?

[SH3RL0CK]

Have they invented fossil fuel free car yet? A car that runs on solar energy or electricity or something green?

 

I know the answer is obviously 'yes' but I'm wondering how much milage can one get out of it and how cheap is it to use and maintain? In other words, would it be to the advantage of the average consumer to purchase one?

 

Yes. In 1828. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jedlik%27s_electric-car.PNG

 

For a more modern version, see what someone came up with in 1904: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-1990-1126-500,_Kraftdroschke.jpg

 

A better list can be found in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car

 

To explain why electric hasn't caught on (yet) requires quite a bit of debate. Essentially, they cannot perform as well as a car powered by liquid fuel because the energy density of gasoline is so very much greater than what can be stored in a battery (per unit weight).

[John Cuthber]

It's easy to replace the SUV; we just need to explain to buyers that they don't need to buy gas guzzlers.

[SH3RL0CK]

It's easy to replace the SUV; we just need to explain to buyers that they don't need to buy gas guzzlers.

 

That is going to be a difficult thing to do if, because of the actual performance characteristics of each vehicle, they actually DO need to buy gas guzzlers.

 

[iNow]

It's easy to replace the SUV; we just need to explain to buyers that they don't need to buy gas guzzlers.

 

I don't think it's as easy as you suggest. It's as if you're suggesting that all we need to do to prevent teenagers from being sexually active is to explain that they need to be abstinent. My point being, there are some deeper emotions and drives motivating these desires, and simple logic won't be enough to overcome them for most in the populace.

[swansont]

To explain why electric hasn't caught on (yet) requires quite a bit of debate. Essentially, they cannot perform as well as a car powered by liquid fuel because the energy density of gasoline is so very much greater than what can be stored in a battery (per unit weight).

 

A slight correction here — the battery is analogous to the gas tank, not the gas itself. A big issue is transport of the fuel, as I calculated in this thread: you can pump gas at ~10 MW because of the energy density, and there's no infrastructure to recharge batteries at anywhere near this rate. So there is a serious drawback on refill times, or range for a given refill duration. If you can do a battery swap, things improve.

 

The storage issue is that batteries are bigger and much heavier, and this also impacts performance.

[Mokele]

As I say, I don't have an S.U.V., I have a G.T.V. - Greyhound Transportation Vehicle (Yes, we actually bought the car specifically for the dogs, because they couldn't fit in our sedan).

 

However, I actually use less gas than some hybrid owners - I walk to school, my wife stays home, and all of our weekly errands are within a mile. I think I filled up about 6 weeks ago, and I'm down to a bit less than half, even after a few unscheduled longer trips.

 

 

Anyhow, what would be nice is some sort of high-capacity electric vehicle with limited range and low speed. Then I could just park the car for months on end, and use the electric for groceries, trips to the dog park and vet, etc. Something with limited range and speed could be genuinely useful in densely build cities like here (New England) if it was made cheaply enough.

[sockyee]

The question on whether we want to use it or not depends mostly on feasibility on manufacturing cost to produce the cars. I believe if this factor is taken away, most likely it's possible to see green cars making its way to the market.

[CaptainPanic]

I think that an SUV would be suited just fine to run on electricity.

 

1. An SUV driver shouldn't care about a few (hundred) extra kilograms: the car is already 2500 kg. Performance will be reduced with only a few percent due to the extra weight.

Compared to other (lighter) cars, the reduction in performance due to the extra weight is the least in an SUV.

2. An SUV has plenty of space, so the battery really won't get in the way. If people really want to transport a lot of stuff, the SUV is not the car of choice: those people buy a van.

Apart from real transport vehicles, the relative reduction of space due to the batteries is the least in an SUV.

 

Therefore, I conclude that of all cars (sedan, stationwagon, small cars, sports cars, SUV) the SUV is actually the best choice for a conversion to electricity.

[Phi for All]

The Toyota RAV4 EV, a smallish SUV but fully electric, was sold for 6 years until Chevron stopped selling them the large format NiMH battery it ran on. They had to govern it's top speed to 78 mph and it could go 120 miles on a charge. There was little tooling cost since the RAV4 with an IC engine had been selling well for years.

 

With rebates, the RAV4 EV sold for about US$29,000. IMO, this is how we should have hybridized cars, by switching already popular models to full electric. GM had their EV-1 and probably could have avoided their current troubles if they hadn't sold the NiMH technology to Chevron.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Phi for All
speling eror

[Mokele]

With rebates, the RAV4 EV sold for about US$29,000. IMO, this is how we should have hybridized cars, by switching already popular models to full electric. GM had their EV-1 and probably could have avoided their current troubles if they hadn't sold the NiMH technology to Chevron.

 

Agreed, but the price is rather steep for a car with such limited capabilities. IMHO, the target for "around-town" cars should be substantially cheaper than a new gas-powered car, because otherwise people will say "why should I spend that extra cash on a car with less ability?". I think there would be a real market for cheap, low-speed, short-distance electric cars, but not until they're a substantially cheaper alternative to a normal, gas-using car.

[insane_alien]

surely the best place to start with is commercial vehicles which don't require high performance and where weight and space isn't so much of a problem.

 

for private cars, getting 300-400 miles to the charge(depending on how efficient your driving style is of course) and taking at most 15 minutes to get recharged(likely by swapping out the battery at the all electric version of a petrol station). there would be effectively no difference from a petrol car then for me. i get 300-400 miles to a tank (depending on how often my dad uses it, if he uses it a lot i get 300miles, if not 400). and once 490 when i decided to try driving as efficiently as possible.

[CaptainPanic]

According to some random internet link that I found through Google (meaning that if you plan to use this: double check the source!), the price of batteries is expected to drop, by as much as a factor 3.

 

I do not wish to discuss the actual price, but it does show that a significant part of the price of batteries is determined by the production costs (and research?).

 

Once the resources are the major factor, the price will level off. It's a good thing that the resources, although important, are not yet the limiting factor.

[Phi for All]

Agreed, but the price is rather steep for a car with such limited capabilities.

Well, they stopped making these before they could really catch on. I think we all know what will happen if we get a really decent alternative electric car as gas prices start to rise. Batteries will get smaller and more powerful, recharge alternatives will pop up all over, and an electric infrastructure will emerge that is market driven.

 

I'm a bit skeptical of the battery swap idea, but that's probably because I'm so enamored with the idea of having PV shingles installed on my house and being able to charge my electric car myself. Generating my own power makes my nipples hard.

[insane_alien]

I'm a bit skeptical of the battery swap idea, but that's probably because I'm so enamored with the idea of having PV shingles installed on my house and being able to charge my electric car myself. Generating my own power makes my nipples hard.

 

there is no reason you can't also have this. however, it is unlikely that most individuals will have the means (either financially or simply there isn't enough sunlight where they live) to generate sufficient electricity.

 

and another advantage of battery swaps is that at the charging stations, the batteries that are starting to degrade and reaching their cycle limit can be shipped off for recycling and it won't cost you thousands to get a new battery.

 

what we need to do now is set up global standard voltages and form factors for the battery packs so there isn't any trouble with people buying cars that use 'A batteries' only to find out that the dominant form of car battery becomes 'B'.

 

a format war is fine for betamax and vhs or HDDVD and BluRay but not with cars as they cost a hell of a lot more.

[Mokele]

Welcomes to SNF, where we can go from Science to Nipples in 14 posts!

[iNow]

Welcomes to SNF, where we can go from Science to Nipples in 14 posts!

Oh, come on, Mokele... Don't aim so low. I'm sure we could do it in far fewer posts than that if we tried.

 

 

 

I'm a bit skeptical of the battery swap idea, but that's probably because I'm so enamored with the idea of having PV shingles installed on my house and being able to charge my electric car myself. Generating my own power makes my nipples hard.

 

Knowing you, I imagine you already know about this, but the stimulus package will help you with 30% of the cost (plus, whatever local rebates/programs are available to you in CO):

 

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits

[John Cuthber]

That is going to be a difficult thing to do if, because of the actual performance characteristics of each vehicle, they actually DO need to buy gas guzzlers.

 

 

I was being ironic.

Anyway, 200 years ago there were no gas guzzlers but humanity got by. There was no need for them then.

I contend that there is no need for them now.

[Mokele]

Anyway, 200 years ago there were no gas guzzlers but humanity got by. There was no need for them then.

I contend that there is no need for them now.

 

Sure there were. They were called "wagons", and while they didn't use fossil fuels, they were actually *worse* in terms of energy efficiency because, well, there's no "off" switch on the horse or horses needed to pull them.

 

The need to move large objects, or large quantities of objects, to very specific places (moreso than rail or boat, at least) has been around since the dawn of agriculture, and will continue long after cars are all electric. The issue is how to make those same vehicles more ecologically friendly and energy efficient.

[SH3RL0CK]

Sure there were. They were called "wagons", and while they didn't use fossil fuels, they were actually *worse* in terms of energy efficiency because, well, there's no "off" switch on the horse or horses needed to pull them.

 

The need to move large objects, or large quantities of objects, to very specific places (moreso than rail or boat, at least) has been around since the dawn of agriculture, and will continue long after cars are all electric. The issue is how to make those same vehicles more ecologically friendly and energy efficient.

 

There certainly were pollution issues with horses that automobiles solved. Streets filled with horse manure knee-deep (every large city at the time had these conditions) does some nasty things to the local ecology. The gas-powered automobile solved this environmental disaster. We improved things then, we need to do so again now. I think we will get there, but I'm not sure what form the next generation of transport will come in (electric, biofuels, hybrids, other?).

[gib65]

So what about solar panelled houses? I've heard stories of people who could live comfortably in houses powered exclusively by solar panels, but this probably entails no top-of-the-line entertainment systems or a TV and computer in every room or things of luxury like that. No?

[Mokele]

It probably depends a lot on the environment, panel type, etc. I did some work at a field station in Guam which used solar panels, but they weren't enough to power the whole building by any means. However, in all fairness, these were fairly old panels and didn't cover anywhere near the full roof area, which created the dual problem of reduced surface area for generation and more area exposed to the tropical sun.

[jackson33]

You can supply a any home with solar power, but at a cost, so long as sunlight is available. Alaska during it's 4 month night may be a problem....

 

http://www.thesolarguide.com/solar-power-uses/cost-faq.aspx

Solar electricity costs about $10 to $12 a watt installed, though you may be eligible for state incentives. Check your utility bill to see your monthly usage. A robust solar electric system will cost about $20,000. You can spend as much money, to receive as much solar electricity, as you feel comfortable with.

 

Solar Farms, that produce power, store additional light/heat during the day, by using molten salts. There may be such things available for home use, but probably at an additional cost.

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-use-solar-energy-at-night

Near Granada, Spain, more than 28,000 metric tons of salt is now coursing through pipes at the Andasol 1 power plant. That salt will be used to solve a pressing if obvious problem for solar power: What do you do when the sun is not shining and at night?

 

Obviously any business can supply it's total electrical needs, if not on a roof, from a mini solar farm.

Unfortunately, it's cost prohibitive in a completive market. Additionally, houses or any business will either need to be hooked up to an Electrical Supply or have generators on grounds in the event of solar panel problems, distribution systems problems, prolonged cloudy periods, violent weather or any other number of current problems.

[GDG]

That is going to be a difficult thing to do if, because of the actual performance characteristics of each vehicle, they actually DO need to buy gas guzzlers.

 

Or you could just get a full plug-in electric Tesla:

 

- 0-60 mph in 5.6 seconds

- 120 mph top speed

- Seating for 5 adults + 2 child seats

- Up to 300 mile range

- 45 minute QuickCharge

- Charges from 120V, 240V or 480V

- 5 minute battery swap

[SH3RL0CK]

Or you could just get a full plug-in electric Tesla:

 

- 0-60 mph in 5.6 seconds

- 120 mph top speed

- Seating for 5 adults + 2 child seats

- Up to 300 mile range

- 45 minute QuickCharge

- Charges from 120V, 240V or 480V

- 5 minute battery swap

 

Yes, this is a good start. I'd consider it for to and from work; but I'm not completely sold.

 

It isn't uncommon to need to haul more than 5 people (many couples have more than three kids). "Seating" for 5 people; but only two car seats (required by law) really means I can only carry four people if I have children. If I had three children (not uncommon), I should not buy this vehicle.

 

Three hundred miles is good to and from work; but I occasionally need to go further than that...and "up to" concerns me if I need to go, say, 250 miles in the rain. A quick charge and battery swap is good; but the places that have these aren't readily available on the road. If I use it to drive a lot (perhaps I use it to travel for work) I should not buy this vehicle.

 

What if I need to carry a large amount of "stuff" with me? This car isn't as capable as an SUV. If I will, even occasionally, need to haul "stuff" I should not buy this vehicle.

 

Most importantly, the cost of $50k is very high; I can buy a different vechicle for $25k; leaving me $25k to buy the extra gas. At a conservative $5 per gallon, this can buy 5k gallons; at a conservative 20 mpg milage this is equivalent to an 100,000 miles of travel. This car could even cost me more than buying a gas-guzzelling SUV (let alone an efficient Prius) and it has much less capability than a SUV.

Edited June 12, 2009 by SH3RL0CK