AntiNormal Posted June 29, 2009 Posted June 29, 2009 Hey! This is my first and hopefully not last post in these forums. I am currently trying to engage in sort of an online debate with some creationists and I am trying to show how evolution works and various evidence for it, etc. I am learning a lot and consider myself a novice in the fields of biology and genetics, etc, but I know that I understand the basics of evolution, and I get it (it has really clicked in my mind after several years lol). The specific information that I am looking for right now is concerning how humans (and other animals) have some unused or deactivated genes in their DNA from generations and speciations ago. I once read somewhere that humans have an old deactivated gene for laying eggs. I am trying to find research material showing and explaining this as part of my method of convincing the people I am debating with. Again, I am not that knowledgeable in genetics and biology (I'm at a mid-college level of education), but I have been reading and studying and I intend to get into learning about genetics. I am mainly fueled by my own interest to understand how life works on all the levels. Please help me with some links and key words and helpful replies. Thanks!
iNow Posted June 29, 2009 Posted June 29, 2009 I'm not a geneticist either, but I suspect that your question is sort of misframed. In fact, humans DO produce eggs... Just look inside a females reproductive tract (the ovaries) for proof of this. The only difference is that human eggs remain inside the body, whereas the eggs of reptiles and many other animals are simply deposited outside the body with a bit of a harder shell for protection. Same process at its core, just slightly different approaches. So, it's not that we "possess a dormant gene to lay eggs," but instead that we've evolved a slightly different approach whereby the egg remains protected inside the body of the female, where it also gestates after fertilization. Like I said, I'm not a geneticist (nor a biologist, for that matter), but reading your question prompted my thought above. Also, if you're battling with creationists, this is a must have: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html Further, if they don't understand evolution, or even if you just want to refresh yourself, this is a good page to have and share: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html Good luck.
AntiNormal Posted June 29, 2009 Author Posted June 29, 2009 thanks a lot iNow. Yes, miss-framed is the proper term I guess. It seems obvious now when I read your reply, and I pretty much already figured as much, but I was just under the impression that there is also ancient and inactive information deep within our genes -- but then again, I dont know very much about genes yet. Thanks for the link. I am reading them over right now.
Mokele Posted June 29, 2009 Posted June 29, 2009 A paper on the remnants of yolk genes in placental mammals
iNow Posted June 29, 2009 Posted June 29, 2009 A paper on the remnants of yolk genes in placental mammals Nice find, dude.
souixsie Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 you're wasting your time. You'll never convince them.
AntiNormal Posted June 30, 2009 Author Posted June 30, 2009 you're wasting your time. You'll never convince them. hahaha tell me about it... I've only been on their forum for 4 days and I already want to put a gun in my mouth
iNow Posted June 30, 2009 Posted June 30, 2009 hahaha tell me about it... I've only been on their forum for 4 days and I already want to put a gun in my mouth Would you find any humor in it if I told you to have faith? http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner Don't give up. It's important to stand up for truth, and the information available at the link above demonstrates plainly that your efforts are working on a much larger scale.
AntiNormal Posted July 1, 2009 Author Posted July 1, 2009 wow actually I've already found myself in an "explain myself or get banned" situation. Apparently my arguments are too good and they are getting pissed at me.... Plus I just found this: http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/guestbook_data/evobabble_alert_page.htm on their site which are things used for spotting "evolution-babblers. Can you believe it?!?!?!?! They create rules designed to weed out the people who would actually bring meaningful discussion to the table.... im so pissed off right now.
Mokele Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Honestly, there's a reason I don't even bother with them anymore. For a time, when I first became a mod, we had a 'ban-on-sight' policy for them, due to their disruptions - now we let them dig their own graves with infractions, which rarely takes more than 2 days thanks to the "Persistent Logical Fallacies" infraction.
AntiNormal Posted July 1, 2009 Author Posted July 1, 2009 omfg I got banned. That's gotta be the quickest I've ever been banned from a forum. Hell, I've only been banned one other time about 13 years ago on the [H]ard forum for something stupid. And this was a Christian site!!!! I wasn't even there for a whole week. I presented tons of points that supported and explained evolution in what I feel is my own unique and convincing way. Then I was immediately targeted by the mods for termination. WTF I mean, I know these people are hard headed and asinine to a degree, but this is a new level .... jesus.
GDG Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 wow actually I've already found myself in an "explain myself or get banned" situation. Apparently my arguments are too good and they are getting pissed at me.... Plus I just found this: http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/guestbook_data/evobabble_alert_page.htm on their site which are things used for spotting "evolution-babblers. Can you believe it?!?!?!?! They create rules designed to weed out the people who would actually bring meaningful discussion to the table.... im so pissed off right now. Keep in mind that these people have already rejected logic and science, and consider "faith" to be superior. Given a choice between faith and reason, they will always pick faith. For them, there is no contest. You're not going to convince them with logical arguments or scientific facts, because they've already rejected science and logic. Presented with an unassailable argument, they simply refuse to listen.
AntiNormal Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 Keep in mind that these people have already rejected logic and science, and consider "faith" to be superior. Given a choice between faith and reason, they will always pick faith. For them, there is no contest. You're not going to convince them with logical arguments or scientific facts, because they've already rejected science and logic. Presented with an unassailable argument, they simply refuse to listen. While I agree with you, I want to tell you that I used to be one of those people with a mindset like that. But after a while the better side of me started chipping away and now I am not brainwashed. So I do have a few things left to say there but I am blocked. So I am wondering if someone could make an account for me, that way my ip does not show up as the same one I have here because you will be in a different geographical location. Just make a user name that sounds neutral and for worldview choose agnostic. Make the password like 123456 or whatever. If one of you can do this and then pm me, I can get back in there and make a few more posts that I already have written. I know I have some good points that people with a good mind will get something out of. We have to fight for truth, or at least against mass ignorance.
iNow Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 So I am wondering if someone could make an account for me, that way my ip does not show up as the same one I have here because you will be in a different geographical location. Just make a user name that sounds neutral and for worldview choose agnostic. Make the password like 123456 or whatever. This isn't a good approach, mate. If they've banned you, you should honor that and move on. Creating a new account will soon be found out, and you will simply again be banned. Don't bring others into the mess with you. If you absolutely cannot go another day without logging into their site, then create a new email account and login via an IP proxy. Again, it's not worth the trouble. [/MyTwoCents]
AntiNormal Posted July 3, 2009 Author Posted July 3, 2009 you're right iNow. Maybe I'll try again sometime later. I am just so mad with them because I was unfairly banned. They block out the stronger minded people who would offer really good differing points about what they believe to create a completely biased environment where the unaware people will walk right into their worldview trap. Makes me so mad. anyway, thanks for listening to me. At least I am not censored here. later
Deko Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 I totally agree that trying to shed light on religious peoples faith is most of the time fruitless and annoying. They practically stick their fingers in their ears and say "naaaaaaa I can't hear you naaaaaa" Trying to convert them however it basically acting the way they act. I want people to make facts and evidence more important than the scribblings from almost 2 thousand years ago, however lets not act like closed minded crazy fanatics. No science wars.
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