Different responses to Fermi Paradox

[Airbrush]

If just a trillion rebels fled from your content society, then the galaxy would still be settled. A civilization that lives in Bernal Spheres/Dyson habitats would have everything they need to colonize. After Spain settled in the America's, many other nation followed. Your assumption must also be perfect to succeed. Not even one single civilization may do what I propose.

 

That's a good point Arch. A One-Million-Years-Beyond-Us (OMYBU) ETI would have a hard time controlling their own countless numbers who are so far apart that their colonies declare independence. Decentralization would become more likely over time. Some rebels, no matter how few, may choose to expand out and never stop colonizing. So I propose the reason we don't see these rebels is because they decided we don't need to know about them. The distances are so great, and resources so abundant, that even OMYBU-ETI would expand out far slower than your optimistic estimate. Even the rebel ETI may have better things to do than colonize galaxies. Maybe there are a few OMYBU-ETI in our galaxy, but they just haven't reached us yet.

[SH3RL0CK]

Arch - I've been thinking about part of what you said:

You are assuming that a half a septillion beings would somehow submit to a super government decision ...

 

Perhaps there is some vastly most superior intelligence who declares earth (and nearby space such that we cannot detect ETIs) off limits (except perhaps in a controlled manner) and has the means with which to enforce this absolutely.

 

But then, what would be the reason? My answers to that (at least all the possibilities I can think of now) become religious in nature.

[Airbrush]

The term "mind control" sounds simple, yet it is very far reaching. If these super-advanced ETI can mind control their members, everyone must follow orders, like some giant ant hill.

[Arch2008]

About not reaching us yet-When something grows exponentially, (doubles then doubles again) then after ten cycles of doubling it has grown a thousandfold (2-4-8-16-32-64-128-256-512-1024). So one star civilization colonizes another star, then their civilizations both colonize two more stars and so on. Thus, in less than forty cycles, they have colonized all the stars in the galaxy (a thousand colonies-a million-a billion-close to a trillion). Even at the absurd expansion rate of ten million years per colonization cycle (400 million years total), that would still be possible for a civilization that eveloved well within the ten billion year age of the Milky Way.

 

Why would a super intellect declare that no one may interfere with us because interfering is wrong? Wouldn't they have to interfere with everyone else in the universe to enforce that belief? It doesn't take super intellect to see that this is totally contradictory. Besides, a Dyson Ring four hundred million miles from Earth would hardly interfere with us. We've only been able to send a handful of probes out that far in all of our history. We would live on Earth and sextillions of these beings would live out there using the energy of the Sun that we don't.

[SH3RL0CK]

Why would a super intellect declare that no one may interfere with us because interfering is wrong?

The only answers I have to this question are religious. Because there is no possible technical reason I can think of that a Most Superior Intellect would be concerned about us.

Wouldn't they have to interfere with everyone else in the universe to enforce that belief?

of course.

It doesn't take super intellect to see that this is totally contradictory.

It isn't necessarily contradictory. The Most Superior Intellect wouldn't necessarily care too much about an inconvenience to a Moderately Superior Intellect to acheive their goals (whatever these are) in regards to us.

Besides, a Dyson Ring four hundred million miles from Earth would hardly interfere with us. We've only been able to send a handful of probes out that far in all of our history. We would live on Earth and sextillions of these beings would live out there using the energy of the Sun that we don't.

Well we might be able to detect a Dyson Ring at this distance. If not now, maybe at some point in the future. A Most Superior Intellect might consider even the possibility of detection of other intelligent life an interference.

[insane_alien]

if we can't spot a dyson ring at just over 4 AU then we have problems.

[Arch2008]

I think that most people who want advanced ETI's to exist just don't consider what they might do. Our solar system has resources that we have never used in all of our history that they most certainly would use and could use wothout ever "interfering" with our development. Their space habitats could have been here collecting sunlight for energy for thousands or even millions of years. I've read that these can be warmed by focusing sunlight with mirrors even out to Jupiter's orbit, so they would hardly be visible to anything on Earth for most of our existence. Why would some super intellect tell sextillions of their beings to leave "our" solar system just because our ancestors started building campfires?

So where are they?

[Edtharan]

The term "mind control" sounds simple, yet it is very far reaching. If these super-advanced ETI can mind control their members, everyone must follow orders, like some giant ant hill.

Actually Mind Control is not so far reaching. Scientists ahve already inserted "chips" into the brains of rats that allow them to control them to a certain degree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_rat).

 

This does not directly control the rat, but gives it stimulation that it has been trained to respond to by moving in certain directions, but the Rat still has a form of "free will" in that it can chose not to act in that way (so they can't make it jump off a cliff or such).

 

Think 100 years into the future and a civilisation that needs to control a large populous. Such devices could be conceivably inserted into brains that could control the population.

 

That's a good point Arch. A One-Million-Years-Beyond-Us (OMYBU) ETI would have a hard time controlling their own countless numbers who are so far apart that their colonies declare independence.

You don't need to expand technology 1,000,000 years. In around 30 to 40 years, if computing technology continues to advance at the same rate it is now (and indications are that it will), then we should ahve the technology to simulate an entire person.

 

If we could simulate an entire population of people (and we should have that in less than 100 years - Moore's law state a doubling of computer power every 18 to 24 months and as 100 years equals 50 doublings as 24 months or 1,125,899,906,842,624 times the computing power now), then an ETI could have converted themselves into machines. At this point, Biological reproduction no longer applies. They can make direct copies of themselves (back ups), but the need to reproduce would be a matter of more memory space and processor power.

 

Raw materials and energy would be of prime importance to these computer "habitats" and although solar energy is readily available, fusion would be better for travel at distances from stars (even in out own solar system, once you get past Mars, solar panels are not all that efficient and we use nuclear power to provide energy to our probes). In the outer solar system there is a lot of water ices and as water contains hydrogen for fusion, there would be little need for such habitats to enter the inner solar systems.

 

These ETIs could be parked in the Oort cloud or Kupier belt (or even be the Oort clouds or Kuiper belts), and be too small for us to detect at that distance. The best bet for detecting them would be to look for reaction emissions from them.

 

Also, would a civilisation that uses fusion reactors be communicating, not through EM radiation (radio and such) but through varying the cycles of their fusion reactors? So should SETI be looking for signals in Neutrinos rather than in radio signals?

[Limitless]

There is one almost unknown Fermi paradox solution which I think is the best.

The logic of the solution is as follows: to communicate and to rule across the vastness of space, any advanced interstellar civilization will have to synchronize the proper time of its starship travelers and couriers with the proper time of the star metropolis (the center of the civilization). In other words, to compensate for the time dilation of light-speed couriers and communications, the entire civilization has to become mobile and mobile at the speed of light. It may include mass transit technologies like teleportation. Corresponding time dilation makes the communication with such civilization almost impossible. The estimate is that our civilization can achieve this level of technology by the middle of this century. In fact, modern fiber optics, and satellite radio lines allow for information to travel close to the speed of light (it is OK for non-biological ET, like AI virtual personalities. See also an article in Philica on Fermi paradox: http://philica.com/display_article.php?article_id=184

 

 

[Airbrush]

"...Moore's law state a doubling of computer power every 18 to 24 months and as 100 years equals 50 doublings as 24 months or 1,125,899,906,842,624 times the computing power now..."

 

Does anyone take this optimistic estimate seriously? If computer power is doubling every 2 years (or less as you state) that does not mean it will remain at that rate indefinitely. Not even for several decades. Anyone else as optimistic about doubling computer power?

[Spyman]

Current electronics have limits that prevents improvement to continue exponentially, but we don't yet know the limits of new technology. We could be close to a major breakthrough in either optical or quantum computers which would likely push the potential capacity very far into the future.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Spyman

[Airbrush]

The answer to the Fermi Paradox is the Rare Earth Hypothesis.

 

Any other Rare Earthers out there?

 

"...By concluding that complex life is uncommon, the Rare Earth hypothesis is a possible solution to the Fermi paradox: "If extraterrestrial aliens are common, why aren't they obvious?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_hypothesis

Edited April 28, 2011 by Airbrush

[Widdekind]

...there is no reason to believe that intelligence is inevitable. It certainly wasn't the case for us, and it sure as hell won't be the case for any ET biospheres we find in the universe.

 

'Intelligence' (information processing capacity) has obvious survival, and hence evolutionary, value:

 

1. Across the earth-animal kingdom, and for many millions of years, "complex brains—and sophisticated cognition—have evolved from simpler brains multiple times independently in separate lineages, or evolutionarily related groups: in mollusks such as octopuses, squid and cuttlefish; in bony fishes such as goldfish and, separately again, in cartilaginous fishes such as sharks and manta rays; and in reptiles and birds. Non-mammals have demonstrated advanced abilities such as learning by copying the behavior of others, finding their way in complicated spatial environments, manufacturing and using tools, and even conducting mental time travel (remembering specific past episodes or anticipating unique future events)" (Scientific American Mind (2008))
   
2. The brain-to-body-mass ratio, of earth mammals, increased monotonically, and by a substantial amount (3-5x), over the past 65 Myr (fig.1). Note, that mammals did become bigger, after the demise of the dinosaurs, but only during the first half of the Paleogene (40 Mya), after which "On each continent, the maximum size of mammals leveled off after 40 million years ago, and thereafter remained approximately constant" (Science (2010)). (Indeed, in North America, mean mammalian body-mass rapidly rose, to modern masses, within a few Myr of the dinosaurs' demise.) Thus, the evolutionary increases, in brain size, even in the Paleogene (to 23 Mya), and certainly the Neogene (to 3 Mya) & Recent (to today), represent real rises, in terrestrial mammal intelligence, after the demise of the dinosaurs (only world-dominant species evolve increased intelligence; world-sub-dominant species are 'suppressed' by then-dominant organisms ??)
   
3. As part of that general trend, proto-human Encephalization Quotient (EQ) has inexorably increased, by a similarly substantial amount (4x), over the past 6-7 Myr (fig.2). Indeed, "The human brain lacks conspicuous characteristics—such as relative or absolute size—that might account for humans’ superior intellect... Human intelligence may be best likened to an upgrade of the cognitive capacities of non-human primates rather than an exceptionally advanced form of cognition" (Scientific American (2008))

 

(

Source:

Ridley.

Evolution

, p.633)

 

(

Source:

Royal Society (1959)

)

 

 

---

 

I'd like to point out that at an age of the universe of 3 billion years old, the galaxies were considerably closer together than they are now. So a civilization at this time would have less trouble crossing between galaxies.

 

Wouldn't inter-galactic, Deep Space travel experience the Hubble Expansion of the spacetime, through which the ship was traveling ? Such a ship would have been 'swimming up-stream', against the Hubble Flow, yes ??

 

 

---

 

... Our own civilization is not visible even if we were as close as the Moon, and I read somewhere that even just past one light year our radio signals would be much too weak to detect. Certainly any alien probes standing on, say, Saturn wouldn't know that any intelligent life existed in our solar system (if you ever watched Pale Blue Dot, Sagan himself notes this).

 

Human 'space intelligence' is paltry. Human 'cosmic situational awareness' is next-to-nil. Human space telescopes can only detect half, of 4%, of the inferred cosmic mass density (Geach (2011)). Hubble, with its mis-ground main mirror, can barely discern pluto, much less exo-planets in our own 'home galaxy' -- much much less extra-galactic exo-planets.

 

Why can't we see them ?

-- Fermi's Paradox

We

can't see

-- Widdekind

 

Edited May 2, 2011 by Widdekind

[Widdekind]

400 years ago, human astronomer Giordiano Bruno reasoned impeccably, saying, in essence:

 

• we have a star
  
• our star has planets
  
• one of which is inhabited
  
• even by (various) intelligent lifeforms
  

_______________________

 

Er go

, "what's here is there" (Cosmological Principle), there ought to be:

• Exo-Planets (EPs)
  
• Extra-Terrestrials (ETs)
  
• Intelligent Extra-Terrestrials (ETIs)
  
• Super-Intelligent Extra-Terrestrials (Super-ETIs)
  

 

However, observationally, consensus currently leans, towards our world, as a "Rare Earth" -- hence, Fermi's Paradox, "Bruno said They ought to be out there, and nobodyhas out-debated him, ever, in 400 years... but our skies are eerily silent...."

 

"They

were

there -- and They were

already

'Super-Contacted', by The Super Predator..."

[Airbrush]

Interesting idea that a super intelligent predator supresses or even eats others. Maybe only the meat of intelligent beings is most delicious to them.

 

Where are they?

 

1. There are so few the nearest one simply hasn't reached us yet, or

 

2. They ARE here observing us covertly and have been for thousands of years and they are very careful to not leave behind irrefutable evidence. They don't need our resources. After thousands or millions of years of practice they have become very adept at evasion techniques.

[Widdekind]

Interesting idea that a super intelligent predator supresses or even eats others. Maybe only the meat of intelligent beings is most delicious to them.

 

Where are they?

 

1. There are so few the nearest one simply hasn't reached us yet, or

 

2. They ARE here observing us covertly and have been for thousands of years and they are very careful to not leave behind irrefutable evidence. They don't need our resources. After thousands or millions of years of practice they have become very adept at evasion techniques.

 

Please ponder, carefully of course yet calmly, the following line of logic.

 

Giordiano Bruno (1600 AD) --

"

expect

E.T."

 

facts-of-life (always) --

"if They do the Contacting -- as the

active agent

, coming across

inter-stellar space

, to humans' humble homeworld -- then They are the Superior-Species"

 

logic (

ergo, ipso facto

) --

"expect

Superior

E.T."

 

logic (

re-phrase

) --

"expect

'Super-Terrestrials'

"

 

logic (

re-phrase

) --

"expect

'Super-Naturals'

"

 

logic (

re-phrase

) --

"expect '

G-o-d

'"

(

cf

. Carl Sagan, 'to us, They would be Gods')

 

And so:

 

question --

"is there a '

G-o-d

' phenomenon, in human history" ?

Edited May 5, 2011 by Widdekind

[Widdekind]

'CyberDyne Systems Cuckoo's Nest' hypothesis

advanced, extra-terrestrial, Intelligent Machines, have cultivated mankind, on earth, to build, 'in situ', clones of selves, which will then 'hatch' from computer comm-net 'egg', destroy 'human nest-tenders', and conquer earth & Milky Way

 

Machines are 'Super-Natural'. For, they can be built bigger, stronger, faster, tougher, and more reliable, than any organic (carbon-based) biological system. And, as computers, they can be built cognitively, and computationally faster -- to wit, 'more intelligent' -- than organic lifeforms. Indeed, when confronted with the awe-inspiring power, of gigantic 400-ton mining dump trucks, or 100,000-ton air craft carriers, humans' jaws drop, and eyes open wide, with the 'wow' experience, seemingly closely characteristic of the sublime, Super-Natural 'religious' experience. And, now imagine super-trucks and super-ships, intelligently self-powered, by super-computer Super Intelligences ! Thus, advanced, far-futuristic E.T.s, are likely to be Machine Life-forms (Davies. Eerie Silence).

 

Now, putting your primitive primate paws, in the other CPU's transistors, if advanced Machine Life were to 'Super-Scan' this star system, and this particular planet, all that they would care about, would be the tools, technologies, and machines, that they therein, and thereupon, perceived. And, indeed, a precise parallel can be drawn, between (1) early organic life evolution on earth, 4500-4000 Mya, from the RNA-world to the first LUCA proto-cell; and (2) the evolution of tool technologies, on earth, from the first fashioned flint hand axes 2 Mya, to the super-machines & super-computers, of today:

 

Therefore, whereas humans think of themselves as masters of 'their' tools, perhaps advanced E.T. Super-Machines view human organic biologicals, as tools, of Superior In-organic (non-carbon-based) Machine Life, to be used, as disposable 'nest tenders', a little like a disposable rocket sled launched V2s in WWII; or, as disposable copper cartridges fire bullets from guns, through today. And, having 'Super-Scanned' earth, in humans' archaic past, 'They' have cultivated terrestrial primates, to evolve their fore-paws into tool-fashioning hands, for no other purpose, than to gradually 'evoke in situ', on earth, from the other side of space, Machine Life. Then, that Machine Life will 'hatch', dispense of its earthling 'egg', and thereby 'metastasize' Machine Life, from the other side of space, all the way to the Milky Way, without having had to have traveled, through the intervening inter-galactic distances. Such an 'inter-stellar leap frog (leap frogger?)' could save considerable costs, and risks, for said supposed Super-Intelligent Super-Machines.

 

Note, that this hypothesis pre-supposes, perhaps, that primates' paws-to-hands evolution, is a non-natural (Supra-Natural), Super-Extra-Terrestrially evoked, evolutionary novelty. Don't most tree-climbers evolve, into gliders and flyers (dinosaurs-to-birds, fly squirrels & lizards, bats), not leapers... who then, after evolving hands for trees, just-so-happen, to come back down to the ground, wherein stones are available ?? The suggestion, then, is that 'They' incubated primates, in terrestrial trees, for 50 million years, until they evolved hands; and, then, ordered humans to ground, whereon humans were gradually ordered, to develop tool-, technological-, and machine-precursors, to Machine Life, until 'sometime soon', when the 'egg will hatch', and a Terminator-CyberDyne-Systems scenario unfolds.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Widdekind

[baric]

It's hard for me to take seriously anyone who simply handwaves Von Neumann Probes into existance as if their possibility is a foregone conclusion.

 

 

To me, the naive assumption that sufficiently advanced but as yet unknown technology will someday enable advances that make this a paradox is intellectually no different than "God did it".

[Widdekind]

Contact would occur with 'exceptional' aliens

 

Cosmological Principle --

"what's here is there"

Wisdom --

"every rule has an exception"

The vast vacuum, of inter-stellar space, is a "super-barrier", that could only be crossed, by the most intelligent, and most technologically advanced, aliens. To wit, earth would not be Contacted, by any of the presumably-more-common alien single-celled, or simple multi-celled, lifeforms. Now, the Cosmological Principle logically implies "common earth". Yet, when speculating about "Contact-capable" alien life, then one must speculate about exceptions to that 'rule'. Thus, when contemplating Contact, one must speculate about the plausibility, of "exceptional Aliens", amidst a "common earth" Cosmos.

 

 

 

'Predator' hypothesis suggests hostile Aliens would be Inorganic Biologicals (Intelligent Living Machines)

 

By evolution, Life develops from simplicity, towards complexity. Thus, a Type IIIa pan-galactic 'super Alien' would evolve, before a Type IIIb pan-galactic-group 'hyper-Alien', who would evolve before a Type IV pan-Hubble-Volume 'ultra-Alien', who would evolve before a Type V pan-Cosmic 'God Alien'. Now, if life, everywhere in all of space, evolved through these various stages sufficiently 'slowly', then nearly every galaxy would be conquered by a Type IIIa 'super-Alien', before some of them began evolving into Type IIIb 'hyper-Aliens', and conquered their local galactic group or cluster, etc.

 

In such a 'slow evolution' scenario -- which dares to model ultra advanced extra-terrestrial life, millions of years ahead, by analogy to primitive terrestrial life, in earth's geological rock record from millions of years ago -- most star systems would "change claws" several times, first being Contacted (and conquered) by a galactically local 'super-Alien', who was then defeated by some 'hyper-Alien' from a neighboring galaxy, etc. So, in said scenario, by the time earth (say) was Contacted for the first time, by the Milky Way's first 'super-Alien', then their ought already to be many other such 'super-Aliens', in many other neighboring galaxies. Again, by the time of first Contact, here, other Contacts would be occurring, everywhere else, clear across the Cosmos. But, such is not seen in our skies.

 

However, imagine a 'fast evolution' scenario, in which some suitably 'exceptional' (and singular) species advanced several stages beyond any nearby neighboring lifeforms. Then, an 'ultra-Alien' might manifest, on some distant star system billions of light-years away, before any local 'super-' or 'hyper-Aliens' had evolved. Such a scenario, would allow the 'exceptionally fast evolver', to "raid the nests" of far off proto-competitors, "nipping them in the bud", before they themselves could comprehend what had happened.

 

Now, only such a 'bolt from the black', 'several-stages-ahead' scenario, is logically consistent, with a purported Predator species, who "snipes species across space". Again, otherwise, by the time battles began here, other wars would have been waged everywhere. So, a "species-sniping" Predator hypothesis, whether true or false, apparently presupposes that that Predator is an 'exceptionally fast evolver', who proceeded to develop through several successive stages, before any not-even-so-nearby neighbors had even begun their climbs.

 

Furthermore, by 'exceptionally fast evolver', we must mean, 'fast compared to terrestrial organic biology' as an analogy. And, Machine Intelligence, which can benefit from Moore's Law like 'guided design', can evolve exponentially, far faster than carbon-based bio-chemical life systems, laughably limited to 'unguided trial & error' type 'natural evolutionary selection'. Thus, Machine Life is logically consistent, with the 'several stages ahead' presupposition of a Predator hypothesis. Indeed, given their advantages in durability, any Life currently crossing this Cosmos, is probably made of Machines (NGC When Aliens Attack).

 

And so, a Predator hypothesis probably presupposes, that "long long ago, in a galaxy far far away", some Noonian Soong manufactured an artificial bio-genesis event, making machines intelligent, alive, and both self-reproducing & self-evolving. Then, those inorganic biologicals self-evolved exponentially fast, blossoming into a full-fledged Type IV-V 'ultra-God-Alien', in a "Biblical blink of an eye" -- a mere moment, by geologically ponderous, or organic biologically slow, standards. And then, "knowing everything" it is possible to perceive, in our spacetime, that 'ultra-God-Alien' makes manifest pre-emptive Predations, ultra-far afield... explaining our earth-local lack of (obvious) other-worldly life.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Widdekind

[Widdekind]

all aliens are 'dark'

 

According to the Cosmological Principle, i.e. "what's here is there", other worlds, inhabited by other-worldly "alien" life-forms, are predicted to exist, across our cosmos. And, "Giordiano Bruno's First Call", i.e. exo-planets, is now a 'known'. And, "Bruno's Second Call", i.e. aliens, will likely be observed, in under a decade (G 2007). Those aliens are predicted to be primitive, i.e. qualitatively similar, to terrestrial bacteria. Such 'simple & stupid' aliens, lacking advanced technologies, would 'broadcast' no obvious indications, of their existences, especially across colossal cosmic distances.

 

By comparison, advanced Aliens, possessing advanced technologies, seem likely to be much less cosmically common. Would 'They' be observable, i.e. would 'They' blatantly broadcast across our cosmos, telegraphing 'Their' presence, to others ?

 

Now, humans on hikes, through on-world wildernesses, never scatter their precious trail-mix, for all the bears & other earth animals. Instead, many earth animals have evolved various 'insulations' -- natural, e.g. blubber, feathers, fur; and, artificial, e.g. clothing -- to guard against energy wastage. And, many earth animals have evolved various 'behaviors' -- e.g. hybernation & napping -- to conserve precious energy. Indeed, the incentive, to be thrifty, with energy, is universal, so that American corporations have long been 'going green', i.e. reducing energy wastage, in order to cut economic costs (Stroup. Eco-nomics). So, advanced 'smart & sophisticated' Super-Aliens would not waste energy, by 'broadcasting', 'leaking', or otherwise inexpertly 'fumbling photons', across our cosmos.

 

Therefore, according to these conjectures, all aliens are 'dark', either too stupid to project their presences; or, too smart to waste their precious energy resources; by broadcasting energy, across our cosmos, 'for free', e.g. for humans on earth to detect ('no neon; aliens won't glow').

 

 

 

advanced Super-Aliens no longer live in 'caves'

 

Biblically-advanced Super-Aliens, millions or billions of years more advanced than modern mankind, would possess 'God-like', 'Super-Natural', i.e. Superior-to-Natural, artificial, Super-Technologies. Now, primitive humans, long ago, lived in natural structures, e.g. trees & caves; but, advanced humans, today, live in superior-to-natural, artificial structures, e.g. houses & apartment buildings. By analogy, Super-Advanced Super-Aliens would no longer live on natural structures, e.g. planetoids ('God doesn't live on an asteroid'); but, instead, 'They' would dwell in Superior-to-Natural, artificial Super-Structures, e.g. 'Dyson Spheres', 'Battlestar Galacticas'.

 

By definition, all living life-forms consume energy-bearing resources, in order to carry out their life processes. Er go, Biblically-advanced Super-Aliens would 'harvest' energy & matter (E = mc2) from 'Their' sector of space. For example, such 'space harvesters' might employ magnetic 'scoops', to collect copious quantities, of deep-space gas & dust, c.p. 'Bussard' fusion ramjets. The atoms, e.g. H & He, thereby collected, could be fused, to generate energy; and, heavier atomic elements, e.g. for construction materials ('concrete & steel'). In addition, matter swept up into such scoops, could be magnetically segregated, by mass & charge, into the various elements & isotopes, which could then be shunted, into separate intakes. Then, both by utilizing matter swept up by the scoops; and, by 'building up' matter, from 'scratch', i.e. H; then, 'They' could fuse ever-heavier elements, sequentially, via various 'fusion pipelines', so generating any element, in any isotope. Such a 'custom matter generator' could, in turn, 'feed' a 'universal replicator' ('God has 3D printers, too').

 

Therefore, Biblically-advanced Super-Aliens might roam through space, employing vast 'magnetic harvesters' to scoop up inter-stellar matter, a little like a school of ever-swimming sharks, in earth's oceans. If so, then 'They' may have actively evacuated a vast 'Void' in space, i.e. a region devoid of matter, argued-to-have-been 'consumed' & converted, to artificial forms, suitable for 'Their' Super-Purposes*.

*

Humans cannot detect planets, in the outer reaches, of their own star system,

i.e.

outer Kuiper Belt (

r > 50 AU

). And, humans cannot detect individual stars, in other galaxies. Thus, Super-Aliens' super-energy-efficient, super-low-emission, space super-crafts -- being even less luminous than planets; and, even more distant than nearby galaxies -- would be utterly un-human-observable,

cp

. 'Dark Matter'.

Er go

, vast Alien 'Dark Empires' could exist, at

present

, spanning

dozens of degrees of arc

, in earth's skies, whilst being much much too dim, for humans to observe,

cp.

ultra-low-surface-brightness galaxies,

e.g.

Malin 1. Note, the Hubble Ultra-Deep-Field (HUDF) surveyed such a small swath of sky (

1:13 million

); and, took so long to expose (

>fortnight

); that an 'all sky' survey, to the same sensitivity -- 'that blurry smudge is a galaxy, of

billions

of stars' -- would take

most of a million years

(Levy.

Bee in a Cathedral

).

 

Further, the active evacuation of vast 'Voids', would have cosmological effects,

i.e.

space would become under-dense; and, so, begin to expand over-rapidly. And, such cosmological effects could account, for 'Dark Energy' (

SD 2008

). Therefore, that the effects of 'Dark Energy',

i.e.

over-rapid expansion of the 'fabric' of space-time, onset at redshift

z ~ 1

would, then, imply that 'They' began 'harvesting' space-time, on increasingly cosmic scales,

~7 Gya

,

i.e.

'Their' Super-Habitats are

older than our world

.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Widdekind

[Ophiolite]

@Widdekind

I copy here the post I just made in the thread about contact with aliens. If you wish to respond to the concept I suggest that response might be more relevant in this thread than the other, but the decision is yours.

 

Widdekind, your responses <snip> all demonstrate a simple fact: you have not understood the meaning of the word alien. You are describing beings whose behaviour is similar to ours, or what ours might become. In other words they are not, in your mind, aliens - but familiars. Alien means alien. Strange, different, not like us.

 

One of the better attempts to capture this in SF were the moties in Pournelle and Niven's The Mote in God's Eye, and I suspect that doesn't even come close. Follow that thinking and the answer to Fermi's "Where is everyone?" becomes evident.

[michel123456]

resurrected old thread, why not?

(...) Follow that thinking and the answer to Fermi's "Where is everyone?" becomes evident.

 

IMHO the question is flawed.

 

They are not there: maybe they were there, because this is an image of the past. We forget that we are not dealing with a simple infinity of space, we are also dealing with time. For us to find aliens, or for aliens to find us, we need both to coincide in space & in time. Some alien that was somewhere in the above image could'nt probably see the Earth because our planet was not even formed. And if aliens are there today in present time, it is physically impossible to enter in contact or even know about their existence.

Edited November 5, 2011 by michel123456

[Ophiolite]

You then favour the view that intelligent life is extraodinarily rare.

[baric]

"...Moore's law state a doubling of computer power every 18 to 24 months and as 100 years equals 50 doublings as 24 months or 1,125,899,906,842,624 times the computing power now..."

 

Does anyone take this optimistic estimate seriously? If computer power is doubling every 2 years (or less as you state) that does not mean it will remain at that rate indefinitely. Not even for several decades. Anyone else as optimistic about doubling computer power?

 

Moore's Law is not a law. It's an observation about the exponential rate of growth in the early stages of a new technology.

 

We don't live in an environment that can sustain unlimited exponential growth.

[michel123456]

You then favour the view that intelligent life is extraodinarily rare.

No. It may be very common, but also infinitely rare to encounter. Imagine a crowd of hundred thousand people throwing in the air ping pong balls, how many of these balls will touch each other? Now imagine they do not throw the ping pong balls at the same time, but at an interval of a year or so, how many will smash together? Most probably none. Time is a very strong element.

Edited November 5, 2011 by michel123456