Magic or not

[NATT]

Can we develop our brain by concentration ??

Do you believe that out mind is the most powerful thing in the world?? We can do anything if we develop our minds.?? And if we delevop, in one stage we will be able to fly(i mean can go up like chris angel) , Move physical objects using mind...etc

 

As imma Buddhist... We learn bout the lord buddha and he was a one who has developed his mind and did certain that kind of things things (For us, he has given the full permission to comment and debet about the religion.So i just wanted to talk bout this with u guyz) ...

 

According to Buddha,we can reach into four stages by concentrating bout these following four stuff(i mean when developing the brain(mind))...

 

1st stage - By concentrating thinking that all the things in the universe(air,darkness,goods, except our body) are infinite.

 

2nd stage - By concentrating that we have no sensation(i mean we can feel nothing by eyes,eyes,nose,tongue,and the body)

 

3rd stage - By concentrating the emptiness

 

4th stage - By concentrating that we are not having even a very little sense and fells like free and we cant feel even the mass of our body and the mind is also very lite)

 

BTW..I know some of u gyz will say this is like bull!@# but u know concentration has become a very good medicine in the present.. even in famous hospitals etc. If u know abt this well you wont tell this is bull@#$ but..I just want to discuss abt this....

Edited July 28, 2009 by NATT

[Realitycheck]

It sounds like you're talking about out of body experiences. I could close my eyes and imagine what it would be like and this would be very easy.

 

There is no scientific support for telekinesis-mind over matter or anything like that. Buddha is enshrowded in myth, meaning that the stories about him have become larger than life, just like the jews and jesus.

Edited July 28, 2009 by agentchange

[Edtharan]

BTW..I know some of u gyz will say this is like bull!@# but u know concentration has become a very good medicine in the present.. even in famous hospitals etc. If u know abt this well you wont tell this is bull@#$ but..I just want to discuss abt this....

Due to an injury, I am involved with this "Concentration" aspect of medicine in my recovery. And I am saying what you are claiming to be "bull!@#".

 

Why?

 

Well the entire concept of mind in medicine is completely different to what you are claiming. What is being done in medicine is based on neurology. In using the mind to prevent pain (what I am involved with) they are using the fact that neurons lead from the brain to where the noireception form the peripheral nervous system reaches the brain. These are inhibition neurons and are the bodies natural method of regulating pain. By developing your own control over these neurons you can help to control your pain levels.

 

This is based on functional (real time) MRI scans of the brain and decades of research and development.

 

Being able to fly, or otherwise break the laws of physics is just not possible.

 

yes, the brain is powerful and it can be used to accomplish many things, but what it can not do is break the laws of physics. There has never, not once, ever been a single reputable case of such an effect.

 

If there was, using today's knowledge of brain imagery and biofeedback, we all could be doing it.

 

Also, such abilities would be of such evolutionary advantage that any species that either had the capabilities, or even needed the capabilities would develop them to the degree that they would be common place.

 

Why have a taken such a harsh response? (I know I'll probably get a reprimand for the tone, but I feel that my response is appropriate and I thought I'd say why).

 

In pain management and dealing with long term injuries (and medicine in general too), unreal expectations can be very detrimental to patients management of their conditions. these can lead to depression and even suicide as the hopes they had are not fulfilled by their treatments.

 

So, every time these claims of the brain being able to do "magic" are espoused by individuals and the media, it leads people to unrealistic expectations. These people are in desperate circumstances and any such offer (real or not) will be grabbed by them as any hope. When these then fail to work properly, and their condition does not improve (or even gets worse), then this can set them back years of progress in their mental acceptance of their condition.

 

More so, such claims are usually better than what medicine can actually do, so these patients often forgo the actual medicine that has been shown to work in favour of these treatments that offer to solve the problem and then fail to work. This can set them back physically in their recover and even cause more injury.

 

If, these claims were true, there are thousands (tens of thousands) of doctors that would gladly jump at the opportunity to use such techniques to help their patients. No one, (especially doctors) like to see people suffer. Because of this, they can get deluded by the promise of "magical" effect of the mind (and as not all doctors are neurologists, they don't necessarily understand why/why not themselves, but they rely on those that claim to understand).

 

Doctors are human too and are just as prone to mistake or being deceived (whether the deceiver is intentional or not).

 

Science is about evidence, not belief. One my believe such things are possible, but that does not make them so. I might believe that there is a pink unicorn that is causing my condition, but that does not make it so.

 

However if I did have evidence that a pink unicorn was causing my condition, then well... we could probably do something about that.

 

The same as it is with this. You might believe that such "magic" is possible, but there is absolutely no evidence that says that it is possible.

 

If you have evidence that this is possible (rather than some writing saying that they think they saw someone do it - and they could have been fooled).

 

Anecdote is not evidence.

 

Evidence requires that it is repeatable under controlled circumstances. This has never been done. There is no evidence that the brain can break the laws of physics.

[hemantc007]

i do not agree with you ...........i accept mind is important but you are over doing it . to what i think mind and body are interlinked by 1 to1 function

for example b = body , m = mind then function is valid in inverse in such a way

b1 to m1 , b2 to m2 , m1 to m2 and inverse(function )

by this it is clear that using mind we can move things or to those kind of thing

be realistic . although we can not ignore it's probability of happening but it is like p = probability of the event

lim p -) 0 ( ie limit probability tenting to 0, p = 0.0000000000...........1

[NATT]

Due to an injury, I am involved with this "Concentration" aspect of medicine in my recovery. And I am saying what you are claiming to be "bull!@#".

 

Why?

 

Well the entire concept of mind in medicine is completely different to what you are claiming. What is being done in medicine is based on neurology. In using the mind to prevent pain (what I am involved with) they are using the fact that neurons lead from the brain to where the noireception form the peripheral nervous system reaches the brain. These are inhibition neurons and are the bodies natural method of regulating pain. By developing your own control over these neurons you can help to control your pain levels.

 

This is based on functional (real time) MRI scans of the brain and decades of research and development.

 

Being able to fly, or otherwise break the laws of physics is just not possible.

 

yes, the brain is powerful and it can be used to accomplish many things, but what it can not do is break the laws of physics. There has never, not once, ever been a single reputable case of such an effect.

 

If there was, using today's knowledge of brain imagery and biofeedback, we all could be doing it.

 

Also, such abilities would be of such evolutionary advantage that any species that either had the capabilities, or even needed the capabilities would develop them to the degree that they would be common place.

 

Why have a taken such a harsh response? (I know I'll probably get a reprimand for the tone, but I feel that my response is appropriate and I thought I'd say why).

 

In pain management and dealing with long term injuries (and medicine in general too), unreal expectations can be very detrimental to patients management of their conditions. these can lead to depression and even suicide as the hopes they had are not fulfilled by their treatments.

 

So, every time these claims of the brain being able to do "magic" are espoused by individuals and the media, it leads people to unrealistic expectations. These people are in desperate circumstances and any such offer (real or not) will be grabbed by them as any hope. When these then fail to work properly, and their condition does not improve (or even gets worse), then this can set them back years of progress in their mental acceptance of their condition.

 

More so, such claims are usually better than what medicine can actually do, so these patients often forgo the actual medicine that has been shown to work in favour of these treatments that offer to solve the problem and then fail to work. This can set them back physically in their recover and even cause more injury.

 

If, these claims were true, there are thousands (tens of thousands) of doctors that would gladly jump at the opportunity to use such techniques to help their patients. No one, (especially doctors) like to see people suffer. Because of this, they can get deluded by the promise of "magical" effect of the mind (and as not all doctors are neurologists, they don't necessarily understand why/why not themselves, but they rely on those that claim to understand).

 

Doctors are human too and are just as prone to mistake or being deceived (whether the deceiver is intentional or not).

 

Science is about evidence, not belief. One my believe such things are possible, but that does not make them so. I might believe that there is a pink unicorn that is causing my condition, but that does not make it so.

 

However if I did have evidence that a pink unicorn was causing my condition, then well... we could probably do something about that.

 

The same as it is with this. You might believe that such "magic" is possible, but there is absolutely no evidence that says that it is possible.

 

If you have evidence that this is possible (rather than some writing saying that they think they saw someone do it - and they could have been fooled).

 

Anecdote is not evidence.

 

Evidence requires that it is repeatable under controlled circumstances. This has never been done. There is no evidence that the brain can break the laws of physics.

 

Coz you know, there r ppl (i mean i have also met) saying this concentration thing is a real bull$%@. But you know there are advantages...Isnt it?!?

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Consecutive posts merged

It sounds like you're talking about out of body experiences. I could close my eyes and imagine what it would be like and this would be very easy.

 

There is no scientific support for telekinesis-mind over matter or anything like that. Buddha is enshrowded in myth, meaning that the stories about him have become larger than life, just like the jews and jesus.

 

I have heard that method is a way of giving exercise to the brain and..bla....

Then do you think that the (lemme tell founders) of these religions are just imaginaries.??

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Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

i do not agree with you ...........i accept mind is important but you are over doing it . to what i think mind and body are interlinked by 1 to1 function

for example b = body , m = mind then function is valid in inverse in such a way

b1 to m1 , b2 to m2 , m1 to m2 and inverse(function )

by this it is clear that using mind we can move things or to those kind of thing

be realistic . although we can not ignore it's probability of happening but it is like p = probability of the event

lim p -) 0 ( ie limit probability tenting to 0, p = 0.0000000000...........1

 

Then we can believe that there was either 1 person in the past who was able to do such things. I mean..am not gonna make that person "Buddha" but cant u belive that there was a one.

[hemantc007]

i have read about the "buddha" ........but i never came across any such thing , indeed he was a great man concentration ,i do not think buddha was able to such thing becaure it quit near to im possible(but not impossible)and i never came across any such thing .....................any way i you follower of buddha .............

[Realitycheck]

Geez, itz Star Wars down in this forum.

 

Believe, in the force ...

[Dudde]

For the sake of all I know who practice Buddhism, I feel I should intervene here somehow. Their beliefs revolve nothing around telekinesis or levitation:confused:

 

There are probably a few of those more...interesting beliefs... but at it's core, Buddhism is more about using Willpower to find peace and understanding, thereby happiness (not to a T, but the huge many I know believe that roughly)

 

a simple wiki search can tell you more

 

I doubt telekinesis is probable or possible, but if you find a way lemme know, that would be sweet

[Realitycheck]

Surely, you heard the one about the monks that levitate ... through concentration?

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Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

 

I have heard that method is a way of giving exercise to the brain and..bla....

Then do you think that the (lemme tell founders) of these religions are just imaginaries.??

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

 

Every reiligion that ever lived has their baggage. Everything happens for a reason. The Jews have their old tales to assert their dominance. The Christians made up their stories to counter the Jews', because let's face it, it was HOLY WAR. Why wait 60 years to write down the beginnings of the New Testament?

 

As far as those monks are concerned, I'm not sure. Maybe they were on opium. I do know that the mind can play tricks on the inexperienced and unwise. One can be lucky and predict something to come true and delude themselves into believing that their mind was actually controlling it. But it only lasts so long. There is no way to break the laws of physics. You must give up control and adhere to the outside world. This is the only way to Nirvana.

[hemantc007]

sorry every one it is "not" in my above post.....it should be "" by this it is clear that using mind we can not move things or to those kind of thing "".........

[Edtharan]

Coz you know, there r ppl (i mean i have also met) saying this concentration thing is a real bull$%@. But you know there are advantages...Isnt it?!?

The big difference is that telekinesis and these "mind over matter" proponents propose that the brain (which is a material thing that follows the laws of physics) can break the laws of physics. The mental control needed to manage pain does not.

 

There in lies the big difference. One violates the known laws of physics, the other does not.

 

Unless you have proof that the laws of physics are violated, then you can not claim that it is possible to violate the known laws of physics.

 

If you want, I can explain why controlling pain through concentration is not a violation of physics if you still don't understand the differences.

[NATT]

Surely, you heard the one about the monks that levitate ... through concentration?

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Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

Every reiligion that ever lived has their baggage. Everything happens for a reason. The Jews have their old tales to assert their dominance. The Christians made up their stories to counter the Jews', because let's face it, it was HOLY WAR. Why wait 60 years to write down the beginnings of the New Testament?

 

As far as those monks are concerned, I'm not sure. Maybe they were on opium. I do know that the mind can play tricks on the inexperienced and unwise. One can be lucky and predict something to come true and delude themselves into believing that their mind was actually controlling it. But it only lasts so long. There is no way to break the laws of physics. You must give up control and adhere to the outside world. This is the only way to Nirvana.

 

oo bro the word Nirvana made me think of u that u have a kind of WISE knowladge abt Buddhism.. Coz may ppl know it as Nibbana and the word Nirwana is a Sinhala word. I liked it!!!

 

But do you think that the laws not of physics but of nature(laws are implimented by human. But nature invented em) cannot be broken by anyone nor by anyway??????

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Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

The big difference is that telekinesis and these "mind over matter" proponents propose that the brain (which is a material thing that follows the laws of physics) can break the laws of physics. The mental control needed to manage pain does not.

 

There in lies the big difference. One violates the known laws of physics, the other does not.

 

Unless you have proof that the laws of physics are violated, then you can not claim that it is possible to violate the known laws of physics.

 

If you want, I can explain why controlling pain through concentration is not a violation of physics if you still don't understand the differences.

 

Yeah man as i told in my above post, the things what u called "laws" are just incidents of the nature. So cant humans or whatever can chane or i mean violate the "laws" of nature?????????????

[the tree]

oo bro the word Nirvana made me think of u that u have a kind of WISE knowladge abt Buddhism..

Really? I think you'll find a lot more people than you expect have a basic knowledge of Buddhism.

 

But do you think that the laws not of physics but of nature [...] cannot be broken by anyone nor by anyway??????

The laws of nature and the laws of physics refer to the same thing, basically they are how the universe behaves. If they appear to be broken then that indicates only that we got them wrong - not that we beat them.

 

(laws are [implemented] by human. But nature invented em)

No, nature doesn't invent, it just does. And humans don't control or implement the laws of nature, they are just a part of it.

 

In fact. Note the following down.

 

Buddha taught that the self - as a discrete entity - is an illusion, which we have come to realise is true. The mind is a product of the brain which just as much a part of nature as the rest of your body, the rest of the contents of your house, the rest of the countryside, the rest of the whole world.

 

It is subject to the same rules and it behaves the same as the rest of nature. Conscious matter is still matter and is not granted any special exceptions whatsoever.

 

There are (as Shakespere put it) more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, and some of those things are extraordinary, awe inspiring and beyond our comprehension but they are all part of nature and as such not granted any exceptions.

 

If nature says gravity, the mind cannot argue. If nature says that acceleration requires a physical force, the mind cannot challenge that. If nature says second law of thermodynamics then your mind, my mind, anyone's mind has no power do anything but play along.

 

tl;dr the laws of nature are universal and the human mind is not exempt.

[jimmydasaint]

You can experience flying sensations by using atropines/scopalamine:

 

SCOPOLAMINE AND ATROPINE

Scopolamine (d -hyoscine) and attopine (dl -hyosycamine) is a tropane alkaloid found in the leaves and seeds of several plant species of the family Solanaceae, including deadly nightshade (Atropa bella-donna ) and henbane (Hyoscyamus niger ). Atropine, a major alkaloid in deadly nightshade, is also found in Jimsonweed (Datura stramonium ). In Europe, in centuries past, henbane was a component of socalled witches' brews or was applied as an ointment to mucous membranes. According to some folktales, the idea that witches fly on broomsticks was derived from the sensation of a flying experience after the use of such ointments.

 

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3403100410.html

 

If it is magic you are suggesting then you can achieve the sensations of flying using artificial means.

[Edtharan]

Yeah man as i told in my above post, the things what u called "laws" are just incidents of the nature. So cant humans or whatever can chane or i mean violate the "laws" of nature?????????????

No. Humans can not change or violate the laws of nature. These laws are what make up our universe, so the only way we could change them is if we created a whole new universe (but then we still couldn't do it in our universe).

 

We can create imaginary universes and we can do what we like in them (daydreaming is a fun way to pass the time). You can create an imaginary universe during an hallucination (drug induced or whatever), but this does not mean that anything you think you are doing actually occurs in the real universe.

 

And here in lies the danger: How do you separate your imagined universe of your perceptions from the real universe? If you get it wrong, then you could place yourself in real danger, or at the least loose some of your hard earned money.

 

This is why I am so harsh against people who claim that we can change the laws of the universe (or violate them) just my using our mind. They are saying that their imaginary universe is just as real as the real one (they then usually try to get you to buy some product that is based on their imaginary universe).

 

Even if they are not selling something, these actions cause more confusion about what the real universe is like and people find it harder and harder to separate the imaginary from the real.

 

So when people who are in real need and need treatment that relies on the real universe, they seek the wrong treatment and can end up worse (or at least the same). Because I am in this situation, I can say that false hope is worse than no hope. With false hope, not only do you have to deal with the no hope, but you also have to deal with the failure of the false hope.

 

SO here is the question: Do you hate that person so much that you want to cause them more distress? If so, then give them that false hope, if not, then stick with the real universe.

[padren]

Sensations/Perceptions that feel real are one thing, and can be achieved with low amounts of energy by manipulating the manner in which the data (electrical signals through nerves) is interpreted in the brain.

 

You can take LSD and see a giant elephant, because you are manipulating those electrical signals with the drug.

 

That is a lot less energy than creating a giant elephant in front of you. Conservation of energy and mass is maintained easily when it's all in your head. To physically create such an elephant would be.... problematic at best with regards to energy requirements.

If you 'flew' where exactly would this energy come from, and how would conservation of momentum be maintained?

 

Thing is we see some pretty crazy things that people can do after thousands of years of traditions passed down to hone various skills. Incredibly wicked martial arts for one, and some pretty sweet mind over matter in terms of the perceptions of the individual. We are yet to see any of these result in people able to fly or move stuff with their minds.

 

Due to this, the very idea of such a thing is pretty much in the same category as theories of reptilian aliens running the world, or any other theory that has no physical evidence to support it. If you feel your ideas are being poorly received, please be aware that your voice is no louder or more compelling that 10,000 other voices that all attest to 10,000 other "theories" that are equally fantastic in nature and without any physical evidence all over the internet.

[the tree]

You can take LSD and see a giant elephant, because you are manipulating those electrical signals with the drug.

As opposed to regular, normal, puppy sized elephants?

[padren]

As opposed to regular, normal, puppy sized elephants?

 

I mean freak'n huge. That stuff isn't for the faint of heart.

[the tree]

Yeah, I know what you meant. It still seemed a funny phrasing, elephants are already, y'know, pretty big.