What is your BMI?

[JohnB]

The BMI is a complete load for a wide variety of reasons.

Hear him! Hear him!

 

Pseudo scientific claptrap that comes from the period where it was believed that weight (Or the width of your eyebrows) could predict social problems. See here for a history of BMI.

 

For those who feel compelled to spend good money on such things, I offer a very reasonably priced Retro-Phrenology service.

[Sisyphus]

Clearly you should measure your volume via displacement in the bathtub.

[John Cuthber]

Pretty much *anything* gives better results than the BMI - skin-fold calipers, densiometry, bioelectrical impedance, all superior. Of course, nothing beats ultrasound, CAT scans, and MRIs, but those are quite expensive.

 

 

 

And it's vastly inferior to the half-dozen methods listed above. It gets used because it's easier to just download a database of patient records, do some quick math, and then go data-mining than to actually do things properly with superior methods (and, most especially, with multiple methods to check the accuracy of one against the other).

 

 

 

And it fails, miserably. People who are long-term anorexics have been told their weight is OK or even a bit high based on the BMI, while perfectly healthy people have needlessly had invasive surgery to fix a body that didn't fit in the narrow little numerical range. Take a look at how utterly the BMI fails to reflect reality.

 

And remember, aside from the intrinsic failures of the BMI as a method, the cutoffs are defined in entirely arbitrary ways, and have been repeatedly "revised" in order to manufacture an imaginary health crisis out of thin air.

 

I thought the point of science wasn't to half-ass it? The BMI is like trying to measure the speed of light using two guys in a hallway with stopwatches. In light of all the other potential methods, why continue using the worst?

 

 

 

Yep, and the mortality is consistently lowest at the BMI category "overweight", which should tell us something right away. Except nobody wants to face up to it.

 

 

 

"In light of all the other potential methods, why continue using the worst?"

I have a ruler and a set of scales. Strange as it may seem, I don't have MRI equipment; nor does my local doctor's surgery.

You seem to have failed to account for the fact that BMI, which was always intended as a "cheap and cheerfull" aproach, is much easier to measure.

 

Also re "Take a look at how utterly the BMI fails to reflect reality"; you can scarcely tell anything from many of those pictures. How, for example, are you meant to judge the physique of someone who is wearing a bulky coat and sat in a doorway?

"I thought the point of science wasn't to half-ass it?"

[Mokele]

"In light of all the other potential methods, why continue using the worst?"

I have a ruler and a set of scales. Strange as it may seem, I don't have MRI equipment; nor does my local doctor's surgery.

You seem to have failed to account for the fact that BMI, which was always intended as a "cheap and cheerfull" aproach, is much easier to measure.

 

Firstly, while I appreciate the value of simplicity for home use, I cannot condone it for research papers, yet BMI is used repeatedly by those too lazy to do real, direct measurements. NIH grants are rarely less than $200k, and you can get a high quality ultrasound for $10k. I know, a friend just bought one for his lab.

 

Second, you can even improve things without more equipment. Make the cutoffs based on data, not arbitrary social norms. Change the formula to one that actually at least makes some sort of sense (using height cubed, rather than squared, for instance). Add additional measurements to account for build, such as intraclavicular distance to measure shoulder width.

 

Hell, you can even include a rough measure of approximate muscle mass. Reach as high as you can and mark that. Now jump as high as you can (no run-up) and mark that. Subtract the two for jump height, which depends only upon leg length and relative mass of hind-limb muscles as a fraction of the total body mass. This requires the incredibly high-tech setup of a wall and 2 post-it notes.

 

The point is, it's not *that* hard, and adding even one of these aspects would be a vast improvement with little to no additional technology required.

 

"Take a look at how utterly the BMI fails to reflect reality"; you can scarcely tell anything from many of those pictures. How, for example, are you meant to judge the physique of someone who is wearing a bulky coat and sat in a doorway?

 

Way to miss the point. The point is that the cutoffs do not correspond to anything remotely approaching reality, and that people who look perfectly "normal/thin" are labeled overweight or obese due to the irrationally defined and fundamentally incorrect cutoffs.

[GutZ]

Martial arts wise, I am probably restricted to the classes I can get in the gym. I will have to find out what they do. I know they do karate and judo, but I am not sure what else.

 

I mainly want something where I can subdue rather than hurt. I have only ever been in one fight as an adult and I just decked him. He went down and didn't get up and I was terrified I had killed him.

 

You live in the UK right? I heard a lot about knives being an issue. The thing with subduing someone or holdin them down you one leave yourself open for attack by other people around you, also if he has a knife you don't know about, he can take it out and stab you.

 

I took a knife fighting course, which I found kinda funny, but what I did take away from it was that if someone wants to stab you...he will. I think I got stabbed over 200 times in 2 hour period and I have my own fake knife with me to defend myself.

 

That's why most places will say ever get into a grappling situation in a street fight, because it puts you in a vulnerable position.

 

What you did was perfect, and I would suggest that you try to get rid of the feeling of guilt or reserve to hurt someone. You don't seem like a guy who wants to hurt people, but if someone attacks you he is threating your health and you have to do whatever it takes to stop it. Hitting someone once and ending a fight is the best way. Break someone's nose, kick to the groin and walk away. it's brutal I know, but when it comes to survival it always is.

 

Unless you want to become a bouncer (the people that kick people out of bars) I would not take the path of only learning to subdue people. It's good to learn how to handle yourself in a situation if it comes to that, but I would never ever recommend it as a self defense mechanism.

 

I'd say take a few judo classes and karate and keep with it, see if you can find someone to join you and you will benefit.

 

Most karate style focus on hitting and back away, which is good concept, you don't want to be very close unless you know what you are doing. With judo, if someone grabs you, you will be more comfortable in that situation, and help defend from being taken down. and if you are you will be prepared. Most fight apparent go to the ground, but still I would be suprised if someone told you it's ideal to let it go there.

 

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/grappling.html

Edited July 30, 2009 by GutZ

[JohnB]

You seem to have failed to account for the fact that BMI, which was always intended as a "cheap and cheerfull" aproach, is much easier to measure.

 

John, you've missed the point. BMI was never intended for the use it is put to.

 

It was developed to further the junk scientific idea that a persons behaviour could be pedicted from the relationship between their weight and their height.

 

Read the link in my post above.

 

BMI is junk science.

[Severian]

You might consider checking your waist-to-hip ratio if you haven't already. One of my old professors, Dev Singh, came up with the idea, and it's a pretty reliable measure of attractiveness and health.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waist-hip_ratio

 

 

As a male, you should strive for a ~0.9 (incidentally, this is the exact ratio of Michaelangelo's David IIRC). Females would want to be around 0.7.

 

OK - I measured this one, and I am 0.91, which doesn't seem too bad.

[Mokele]

If that's the case, you're fine. I'd still recommend the blood tests if you get the chance, though - obesity's correlation to things like cholesterol and high blood pressure is pretty weak - but it's probably not absolutely necessary if you're under 35 and have an even halfway health diet.

[Severian]

I already did the blood tests, which show I have high cholesterol. That is why I am on a health drive in the first place.

[Lance]

Join the Army. Works wonders.

[Severian]

Join the Army. Works wonders.

 

They wouldn't have me (even if I wanted to join) since I was diagnosed as having MS (and am far too old anyway).

[dr432]

idk severian by your avatar thing you look pretty lean

[Severian]

idk severian by your avatar thing you look pretty lean

 

That is not me. That is Phillip K Dick, the sci-fi author (who is dead).

[iNow]

So, you're saying he's even leaner now?

[bascule]

I just found out my BMI is slightly over 25, which is a surprise to me, because I do not consider myself overweight and yet that's what my BMI would classify me as.

 

My BMI used to be ~22 a little over a year ago. I think I've been getting more strenuous exercise lately and much of my BMI increase can be chalked up to muscle mass increases than increases in fat. I'm not saying I haven't put on weight as well (I started eating turkey/chicken, which might have something to do with it) but checking my BMI gave me something of a shock.

 

I guess it might also be that I'm getting older and my metabolism is starting to slow, although given how much I exercise and how frequently I would be surprised if it slowed that much.

 

I have short periods of mild aerobic exercise (jogging) for 20 minutes every day throughout the week, and typically a much longer period (1-2 hours strenuous hiking) every weekend.

[iNow]

As demonstrated earlier in the thread, BMI is a pretty crappy indicator.

[visceral]

My BMI is 18.9.

 

I recommend eating frequent small meals instead of less frequent large ones. Oh, and ingest a LOT of caffeine. :D

[iNow]

How has your workout regimen been going, Severian? I thought of your thread because I've been doing a new program myself with a few friends from work, and I've been really happy with the results so far (about 3 weeks in).

[CaptainPanic]

Waw, I am on the edge of overweight according to this BMI

However, I am tall, and something just doesn't seem right... because I am not fat. I have a healthy amount of body fat and I get enough exercise.

Let's do a test... let's take some top-athletes and see if they're FAT.

Kobe Bryant: 198 cm, 93 kg. BMI = 23.7 (nearly overweight)

LeBron James: 203 cm, 113 kg. BMI = 27.4 (overweight)

Shaquille O'Neal: 216 cm, 147 kg. BMI = 31.5 (seriously overweight)

 

I think I made my point. As mentioned before, I think that this BMI is flawed, especially for tall people.

 

Measure a large amount of healthy people, and give that data to somebody skilled in statistics, and I am sure that the correlation will look different than this BMI. But then the other coefficient, the IQ, would prevent people from successfully calculating it

Edited September 15, 2009 by CaptainPanic
putting stuff in bold and adding the last remark

[insane_alien]

my BMI has just moved over into the overweight region in the past couple of weeks.

 

curiously enough, i just had to go buy a new pair of jeans and a belt because my old ones keep falling down and (besides the fact that my belt is starting to fall to peices) i'd have had to make a third extra hole on the skinny side for my bel to do anything other than weight my jeans down and make them more likely to fall down.

[Severian]

How has your workout regimen been going, Severian? I thought of your thread because I've been doing a new program myself with a few friends from work, and I've been really happy with the results so far (about 3 weeks in).

 

It seems to have stalled a bit, in so much as I am not losing any more weight. I am about 91kg now, which is only 1kg lighter than when I started this thread.

 

I have been on a beach holiday though, which didn't really help.

 

But having said that, I still feel fitter and slimmer than I did just a few weeks ago. I am still going to the gym and trying to eat healthily and I am now going running sometimes too. I think I have been building muscle, which presumably adds a bit to my weight, as well as burning fat. Just like insane_alien I had to buy new jeans recently and punch some new holes in my belt.

 

With regard to the running, I am now running about 5km without stopping or getting too out of breath, which seems much better than I could do a few weeks ago.

[iNow]

Right on, and you're right... muscle weighs more than fat for the same unit area, so weight might not be the best indicator of your progress. Sounds like you're on the right path, though. Keep it up.

 

With me, it's been strange. I sense my testosterone going up since I've been working out more regularly. I wonder if you (or others) have experienced that.

[dr.syntax]

I think you are doing all the right things and that it is working for you. You`re doing good,don`t get discouraged. These are life saving/prolonging changes you are making. I`ve been struggling with this myself and it can be very hard to lose weight. Also, I expect you are adding to your muscle tissue. Much of what added to your overall weight has changed from unhealthy fat tissue to healthy muscle mass. Also,large boned people`s ideal BMI is more than that for thinner boned people. ...Dr.Syntax

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I think you are doing all the right things and that it is working for you. You`re doing good,don`t get discouraged. These are life saving/prolonging changes you are making. I`ve been struggling with this myself and it can be very hard to lose weight. Also, I expect you are adding to your muscle tissue. Much of what added to your overall weight has changed from unhealthy fat tissue to healthy muscle mass. Also,large boned people`s ideal BMI is more than that for thinner boned people. ...Dr.Syntax

[Severian]

With me, it's been strange. I sense my testosterone going up since I've been working out more regularly. I wonder if you (or others) have experienced that.

 

I am not sure what you mean. How can you tell your testosterone levels? Are you getting more aggressive? Or more horny, more hairy, or what?

 

As far as aggression goes, I would say if anything I am less aggressive, presumably because I am able to work out my stress a bit better by exercising. As for getting horny, I am always horny (a symptom of not getting any), so I haven't really noticed any difference...

[iNow]

How can you tell your testosterone levels? Are you getting more aggressive? Or more horny, more hairy, or what?

Well, I haven't specifically measured the levels, but yes... the change in some of my behaviors is rather indicative of a surge in testosterone. To answer your question, "All of the above."