Baghdad Batteries to "light"; perhaps a class project?

[Bishadi]

the B batteries can be built

 

http://www.instructables.com/id/Building_a_quotBaghdad_Batteryquot/

 

and to create a potential and isolate Hydrogen and Oxygen from Water; to recombine them and you can create light.

 

some time back after seeing a carving on the wall of an egyptian tomb i noticed what looked like 5 B bats in series that had a lead going into a larger one and from that 'light'

 

now in the deep tombs, the oxygen is so low that lighting a lighter (bic) is tough but with electrolysis both the H and O are available

 

and if the B bats are offering the potential for the electrolysis, then PERHAPS they were for 'light'............ (any thinking folks like the idea?)

 

this thread is to offer any the ability to play with the idea and perhaps see if your school/community science group can 'create light' from this chemical configuration (self contained)

 

Enjoy

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41 looks and not a comment or pole addition

 

is this a religious forum?

[ydoaPs]

I don't think the voltage is high enough for any decent amount of hydrolysis.

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is this a religious forum?

 

No.

[insane_alien]

you would need thousands of those batteries every minute to keep a substantial flame alive. not to mention, a 2:1 mix of hydrogen and oxygen doesn't really put out much visible light.

[Bishadi]

I don't think the voltage is high enough for any decent amount of hydrolysis.

 

did you do the math?

 

did you take the bitumen into context?

 

if the voltage is 'x' (per bat) did you calculate the amps with 4,5, or even 100 in series?

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you would need thousands of those batteries every minute to keep a substantial flame alive. not to mention, a 2:1 mix of hydrogen and oxygen doesn't really put out much visible light.

 

 

and even in this video, they share how basic solar panels can do it (electrolysis)

 

 

 

sure there maybe more items an mediums not covered in the OP (it was an idea i had from seeing the carving and remembering no one know what the B batteries were for; but they needed light in them deep tombs)

 

i opened a thread to give others a chance to think it through

 

here are physics on the matter

 

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/electrol.html

[insane_alien]

oh i know the physics(and the chemistry) behind it.

 

but the fact of the matter is that the batteries are pretty crap in design. the voltage IS enough to electrolyse water but the current they are able to produce is pretty crap. not enough surface area on the electrodes and high internal resistance. the enrgy density is also crap. a few hundred joules at most per battery.

 

this does not amount to a lot of hydrogen per battery and the materials necessary for the construction of the batteries would be very expensive at that time.

 

it is much more plausible that the batteries were used to electroplate objects. possibly with gold.

[Bishadi]

oh i know the physics(and the chemistry) behind it.

 

so what's the bitumen for?

 

 

but the fact of the matter is that the batteries are pretty crap in design.

 

not bad for a few thousand years old.

 

the voltage IS enough to electrolyse water but the current they are able to produce is pretty crap.

and now you are not being very 'electrical' in your thinking. The greater surface area the greater current. (ie... notice a battery in a car is high amp with low voltage)

 

not enough surface area on the electrodes and high internal resistance.

did you calculate the surface area based on the electrolyte or better still please share any 'search' you did to identify the amps?

 

otherwise you are not being very helpful with appreciating what pyramid builders built well before the idea of internet

 

the enrgy density is also crap. a few hundred joules at most per battery.

ah.... so you just shared how little you know.

 

them are amps (see how electricity works http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/estatics/u8l4b.html

 

(keep that math close, it's important to life too)

 

and then see coulombs law (for kids)

 

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/estatics/u8l3b.html

 

 

this does not amount to a lot of hydrogen per battery and the materials necessary for the construction of the batteries would be very expensive at that time.

and since the CARVING shared something similar as the OP mentions;

 

that the tombs had to have light DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP down in there to even carve a damn thing

 

as well, it 'could' work and be far more useful then plating, since there was LOW WOOD SUPPLIES and light is a big issue half the day

 

it is much more plausible that the batteries were used to electroplate objects. possibly with gold.

 

i think this is an ignorant claim based on following what is published

 

i consider that almost as nutty as believing in black holes, dark matter/energy and higgies (like huggies to an infant; required to keep the mess up)

[Sisyphus]

The "Baghdad batteries" are only from the early centuries AD in Mesopotamia, millenia after Egyptian pyramids and not even in Egypt. Also, they are nearly identical to sacred scroll containers known to have been used during that period. Hence, it seems to me (and most archeologists) that resemblance to electrical batteries is just a tantalizing coincidence. Batteries of slightly modified design could have been used to electroplate, but there's actually no real evidence of this or any other use, nor have there been any artifacts from that period discovered that appear to have been electroplated.

[insane_alien]

you still haven't addressed the fact that a pure hydrogen/oxygen mix will burn with a nearly invisible flame (the emmissions are mainly ultraviolet) so it would be ****ing useless as a light source.

 

The bitumen in the batteries is used as a sealant. it is one of the many uses for bitumen.

 

those pages do involve electrical calculations but there is bugger all to do with batteries.

 

if you want some maths on the situation, fine. we will assume 100% efficiency at all points in the cycle(which will skew the results in your favour).

 

you need 192970 coloumbs to generate a mole of hydrogen gas from water. with the oxygen this is 33.8 litres of gas mix(although obviously you wouldn't keep the gasses mixed).

 

so to generate 1 litre of the gas mix we need 5709 coloumbs.

 

we'll assume the baghdad batteries were roughly on par with a modern day D-Cell(this is being very generous here). they contain 12Ah of charge this is equivalent to 43200 coloumbs.

 

so from one battery you get ~7.5 litres of mix.

 

to sustain a flame you'll need something like 0.05litres per second. this means you could (in theory) get 150 seconds of flame from a single battery.

 

however, the current is massive. 43200C/150s is 288A. yep. thats a lot of current. infact, at 1.5 Volts thats 432 watts of energy. so you'd need a lot of batteries to generate that sort of current.

 

lets say the can sustain an output of 10A(again being very generous here) thats 29 batteries in parallel you need. that will get you 1.2 hours of flame(thats actually invisible).

 

now, one flame isn't going to be very useful to your workers.

 

so lets say you have 5 and the chamber is continuously lit for 16 hours a day(there are no unions in those days). you need 14 sets of batteries per day per flame. (16/1.2)

 

or 70 sets of batteries per day. so 70*29 is 2030 batteries PER DAY.

 

that is a ridiculous number for the period and the pharoh is going to find his tomb rather short on gold as he's spent it all on batteries.

 

and this is if we have 100% efficiency. overall efficiency is probably somewhere around 10% so 20,300 batteries would be required.

 

remember, this is only for five nearly invisible flames here. its a LOT of expense where you could for less cost, effort and expense, construct a pair of bellows and a canvas duct to circulate air and have enough oxygen to burn a torch.

[Bishadi]

The "Baghdad batteries" are only from the early centuries AD in Mesopotamia, millenia after Egyptian pyramids and not even in Egypt. Also, they are nearly identical to sacred scroll containers known to have been used during that period. Hence, it seems to me (and most archeologists) that resemblance to electrical batteries is just a tantalizing coincidence. Batteries of slightly modified design could have been used to electroplate, but there's actually no real evidence of this or any other use, nor have there been any artifacts from that period discovered that appear to have been electroplated.

 

 

 

thanks for the opinion

 

it seems like a good method of just shelving the B bats, the electroplating

 

the ideas of 'creating' light or basically the inclination any might have to tinker

 

thanks for that fine representation of just being complacent with what others represent

[insane_alien]

and are you just going to ignore my post?

[Bishadi]

you still haven't addressed the fact that a pure hydrogen/oxygen mix will burn with a nearly invisible flame (the emmissions are mainly ultraviolet) so it would be ****ing useless as a light source.

 

nearly but not (google burning Hydrogen) kids are doing it all over the world right now!

 

and then tell this forum what happens if you add a few elements (maybe even an alkali in the water vabor after the initial reaction of the H and O), could that add a wee bit of 'light'

 

 

The bitumen in the batteries is used as a sealant. it is one of the many uses for bitumen.

sure, all them batteries and within the instructions guide that came with them, are you suggesting they represented that or it is some other interpretation and you are calling it 'the answer'

 

 

those pages do involve electrical calculations but there is bugger all to do with batteries.

 

it was to assist you with understanding the 2 parts of electricity (voltage, amperage)

 

i will leave the rest for others to observe (thanks for the addition)

[insane_alien]

and the rest of the post which points out the utter insanity of battery power electrolysis?

[Sayonara]

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