No bias: Does marijuana permanently effect the brain?

[straightloco]

Before you read my question, please know that I really only want answers from scientists, doctors, OR people who are experts or have extensivly researched the subject.

 

I'm NOT looking for answers from baised people. This includes anti-drug activists that don't think anyone should smoke marjuana, and also includes people who overly advocate marijuana, worshipping it and refusing to beleive that any adverse effects can come from it.

 

--

MY QUESTION:

My question is, can the use of marjuana have any permanent effects on the mind?

This includes, loss of memories that happened while NOT high (childhood memories, etc.). Or maybe damaging your ability to remember memories that are created years after the user quits?

Or maybe loss of brain cells? If so, can proof be provided? I read a long article about marijuana's effects on the brain cells, and I forget exactly what it said, plus it was very complicated, but i think it said that something in marijuana will kill the cells, but another thing (i forget if it's in marijuana or your brain) will prevent the cell from dying.

So if marjuana causes any permanent changes, losses, or damages to the human mind, I'd like to be informed.

--

 

The reason that I'm asking this, to give you a little background info-- I'm an occasional marijuana smoker/eater, and when I started, I was soming about once a week, then eventually once a month, and currently I haven't smoked or eaten (brownies, oil, etc) marijuana in atleast 5 months. But when I DO consume marijuana, I always try to get as high as I can, and sometimes hallucinate, because I usually comsume very potent sativa strains, which are more psychedelic. I get so high that my mind feelz hazy weeks after.

My older cousin used to be a bigtime pothead, but he tries not to smoke so much now, and tells me not to, and says that he thinks it will damage my brain.

I value my mind very much, and want to make sure that I don't change it with drugs.

But I LOVE to get high so will it really do anything bad if induldge just once a month?

 

Thanks in advance to anyone who answers my question. I will apprieciate it very much.

[StringJunky]

As a long time user, until 8 years ago when I stopped completely, I can tell you that cannabis is NOT an innocuous substance. The most notable long-term effect is its effect on short term memory; that part of your memory that deals with things you've just done or thought of...your mind goes intermittently blank on these things. This can lead to a discontinuous train of thought.

 

In a nutshell, yes it does damage your brain. How can it not? It alters your brain chemistry!

 

http://www.nida.nih.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html

 

You don't need scientific proof hat it causes mental harm. Look closely at the long term users around you, that you know, and compare them to those you know who don't...as I have done.

 

Proportionally, I bet the group who smokes are more socially isolated and dysfunctional ( ie have more antisocial or pathalogical behaviour patterns) than the group that don't...that behaviour is symptomatic of a mental dysfunction, most likely, brought on by cannabis or in combination with other substances

 

If you are looking for scientific reassurance, you won't find it...If you acknowledge the evidence.

 

Which is more important, your long-term mental health or your short-term pleasure?

[John Cuthber]

It seems to me that someone who thinks that a single person's experience is adequate data on which to base a response, is displaying exactly the sort of bias that the OP was seeking to avoid.

On the other hand I suspect that practically everyone has at least some bias with respect to this question.

I know I have a fairly strong opinion on the matter so I'm not giving an answer.

[CharonY]

I would refer to some reviews:

In short the evidence is not absolutely conclusively. In one study in adolescents it appears that abstinence from cannabis may reduce the damages due to abuse. I assume that it is heavily dependent on amount and length of consumption, as well as individual susceptibilities.

 

Functional consequences of marijuana use in adolescents.

Jacobus J, Bava S, Cohen-Zion M, Mahmood O, Tapert SF.

 

Nearly half of 12th graders have tried marijuana, and 6% use daily. This paper reviews studies on neuropsychological functioning, brain structure, brain function, and subjective and objective measures of sleep in relation to adolescent marijuana use. Adolescents who use marijuana heavily tend to show disadvantaged attention, learning, and processing speed; subtle abnormalities in brain structure; increased activation during cognitive tasks despite intact performance; and compromised objective indicators of sleep quality. Some abnormalities appear to persist beyond a month of abstinence, but may resolve within three months if cessation is maintained. Recommendations for future studies include characterizing these indices in youth prior to the onset of marijuana use then examining change after chronic use has started, and using large samples of youth with varying degrees of involvement with marijuana as well as alcohol, nicotine, and other drugs to characterize the interactive influences on neurocognition and neural health.

 

In others, long-term effects were detected.

 

 

Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2008 Apr 16;286(1-2 Suppl 1):S108-13. Epub 2008 Feb 13.

 

Long lasting consequences of cannabis exposure in adolescence.

Rubino T, Parolaro D.

 

Despite the increasing use of cannabis among adolescents, there are little and often contradictory studies on the long-term neurobiological consequences of cannabis consumption in juveniles. Adolescence is a critical phase for cerebral development, where the endocannabinoid system plays an important role influencing the release and action of different neurotransmitters. Therefore, a strong stimulation by the psychoactive component of marijuana, delta-9-tetrahydrocanabinol (THC), might lead to subtle but lasting neurobiological changes that can affect adult brain functions and behaviour. The literature here summarized by use of experimental animal models, puts forward that heavy cannabis consumption in adolescence may induce subtle changes in the adult brain circuits ending in altered emotional and cognitive performance, enhanced vulnerability for the use of more harmful drugs of abuse in selected individuals, and may represent a risk factor for developing schizophrenia in adulthood. Therefore, the potential problems arising in relation to marijuana consumption in adolescence suggest that this developmental phase is a vulnerable period for persistent adverse effects of cannabinoids.

 

Chronic toxicology of cannabis.

Reece AS.

 

Medical School, University of Queensland, Highgate Hill, Brisbane, QLD, Australia. sreece@bigpond.net.au

 

INTRODUCTION: Cannabis is the most widely used illicit drug worldwide. As societies reconsider the legal status of cannabis, policy makers and clinicians require sound knowledge of the acute and chronic effects of cannabis. This review focuses on the latter. METHODS: A systematic review of Medline, PubMed, PsychInfo, and Google Scholar using the search terms "cannabis," "marijuana," "marihuana," "toxicity," "complications," and "mechanisms" identified 5,198 papers. This list was screened by hand, and papers describing mechanisms and those published in more recent years were chosen preferentially for inclusion in this review. FINDINGS: There is evidence of psychiatric, respiratory, cardiovascular, and bone toxicity associated with chronic cannabis use. Cannabis has now been implicated in the etiology of many major long-term psychiatric conditions including depression, anxiety, psychosis, bipolar disorder, and an amotivational state. Respiratory conditions linked with cannabis include reduced lung density, lung cysts, and chronic bronchitis. Cannabis has been linked in a dose-dependent manner with elevated rates of myocardial infarction and cardiac arrythmias. It is known to affect bone metabolism and also has teratogenic effects on the developing brain following perinatal exposure. Cannabis has been linked to cancers at eight sites, including children after in utero maternal exposure, and multiple molecular pathways to oncogenesis exist. CONCLUSION: Chronic cannabis use is associated with psychiatric, respiratory, cardiovascular, and bone effects. It also has oncogenic, teratogenic, and mutagenic effects all of which depend upon dose and duration of use.

[bascule]

I've been rather curious about British studies reporting schizophrenia induced by cannabis. I recently watched a television program (Britain's 20 Most Dangerous Drugs) purporting to use the latest evidence to rank drugs in terms of harm. Cannabis was rated more dangerous than many other drugs, including amyl nitrate, ecstacy, GHB, anabolic steroids, Ritalin, LSD, and solvents. This really threw me for a loop, especially considering some of these drugs caused dozens of deaths every year (in Britain alone). They claimed one death a year due to cannabis (but didn't say what the circumstances were).

 

Their argument was that 1 in 4 Britons has some sort of genetic anomaly which makes them susceptible to cannabis-induced schizophrenia. They took the cameras into a mental ward and interviewed doctors calling it an epidemic.

 

I've been curious if the British population has a different genetic makeup than the rest of the world which makes them more susceptible to cannabis-induced schizophrenia, as all of the studies on the matter seem to be coming out of Britain, and over here on the other side of the pond the idea that marijuana can induce schizophrenia seems like utter nonsense.

[StringJunky]

......... of the studies on the matter seem to be coming out of Britain, and over here on the other side of the pond the idea that marijuana can induce schizophrenia seems like utter nonsense.

 

That link I gave earlier is the website of the National Institute of Drug Abuse based in Bathseda USA. They don't seem to think the link with schizophrenia is nonsense:

 

Marijuana and Mental Health

A number of studies have shown an association between chronic marijuana use and increased rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, and schizophrenia. Some of these studies have shown age at first use to be a factor, where early use is a marker of vulnerability to later problems. However, at this time, it not clear whether marijuana use causes mental problems, exacerbates them, or is used in attempt to self-medicate symptoms already in existence. Chronic marijuana use, especially in a very young person, may also be a marker of risk for mental illnesses, including addiction, stemming from genetic or environmental vulnerabilities, such as early exposure to stress or violence. At the present time, the strongest evidence links marijuana use and schizophrenia and/or related disorders.6 High doses of marijuana can produce an acute psychotic reaction; in addition, use of the drug may trigger the onset or relapse of schizophrenia in vulnerable individuals.

[bascule]

They don't seem to think the link with schizophrenia is nonsense:

 

[...] it not clear whether marijuana use causes mental problems, exacerbates them, or is used in attempt to self-medicate symptoms already in existence.

 

Correlation does not imply causation, and these studies seem to have conclusions far vaguer that what I've seen reported.

[GDG]

THC (the active ingredient(s) in marijuana) binds neurotransmitter receptors in the brain (CB1 and CB2, at least) that normally react to anandamine. If I remember correctly, anandamine is implicated in the neural circuits involved in forgetting, and attenuating the response to stimuli.

 

I don't know if there are conclusive studies, but I would think that chronic use of a compound that mimics a CNS neurotransmitter pretty much has to have a long-term effect. In the brain, pathways that are repeated stimulated get stronger and easier to activate (this is why we get better with practice). I'm not sure I'd want to repeatedly stimulate the "forgetting" pathway (I'm forgetful enough already ).

[StringJunky]

Correlation does not imply causation, and these studies seem to have conclusions far vaguer that what I've seen reported.

 

"Correlation does not imply causation,.....". With respect to this thread, I interpret this as: It is not reasonable or logical to suspect a correlation between cannabis and mental illness

 

Given that delta-9-thc can induce temporary effects in a person (with a usually stable cognitive function) not dissimilar to an acute schizophrenic-like state:

 

"Schizophrenia is a chronic mental health condition that causes a range of different psychological symptoms. These include:

 

* hallucinations - hearing or seeing things that do not exist, and

* delusions - believing in things that are untrue.

 

Hallucinations and delusions are often referred to as psychotic symptoms or symptoms of psychosis. Psychosis is when somebody is unable to distinguish between reality and their imagination." - http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Schizophrenia/Pages/Introduction.aspx

 

It does not take a quantum leap of the imagination (I think), from a research perspective, to wonder (as some of the medical establishment is doing around the world) if these effects might manifest permanently in some vulnerable individuals who otherwise may not have got it (mental illness).

 

"... and these studies seem to have conclusions far vaguer that what I've seen reported."- bascule

 

Given the number of variables that have to be taken into account, the conclusions from studies, in the face of scientific rigor, will nearly always seem vague. The weight of all the evidence as it is published, must be viewed in its totality and a conclusion drawn from that.

 

Just like we did in the moonlanding thread recently.

[Moontanman]

I am quite sure that cannabis use has some long term effects on the mind as do most mood altering substances people put into their bodies. To me the question is not if cannabis has long term effects but how severe are these effects compared to other substances we use to "relax" Are we talking about a .0001% difference or a 25% difference? Are the effects statistically significant or are they within the variance of normal brain chemistry? Are the effects the same in all individuals or are some individuals more prone to the effects than others? Do some people who already have brain chemistry problems use because the substance helps them deal with their problems? Or does the problem attract certain people to the substances in question? Alcohol has long term effects, as does nicotine, magic mushrooms, cocaine, caffeine, the list goes on and on. Even substances we do not take to intentionally change our mindset such as plastic residues from drink bottles can have lasting effects. The only sure way is not to ingest any substance into the body that is not needed by the body.... Good luck.... It seems that nearly all these studies are so polarized because they set out to prove positive or negative effect with out looking at the big picture. The idea that all levels of use or exposure to any of these substances is some how harmful to everyone in the same way is also flawed. Some people are more prone to alcoholism or even cocaine abuse and others can use the substance and take it or leave it. The OP says he wants unbiased research or opinions but the very idea of such research is virtually always biased. No one starts out to show neutral effects and any effects are bound to be harmful in some way. I say bound to be harmful because any tinkering with brain chemistry is bound to have some effects that are less than good. Even medical attempts to correct brain chemistry problems always has both positive and negative effects. I think the idea of an unbiased look at the effects of any substance that alters brain chemistry is flawed from the very start because we are part of the study and so no actual neutral study can be done.

[straightloco]

Thanks to all of you so far who have been helping answer my question.

All you answers are appreciated and please anyone who has any more input, i would like to hear what you have to say.

[bascule]

Given the number of variables that have to be taken into account, the conclusions from studies, in the face of scientific rigor, will nearly always seem vague. The weight of all the evidence as it is published, must be viewed in its totality and a conclusion drawn from that.

 

I found this interesting, especially it's in Britain, where the "Britain's 20 Most Dangerous Drugs" had physicians citing a 1/4 chance of developing schizophrenia from habitual cannabis use:

 

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/health/drugs-chief-alcohol-more-dangerous-than-ecstasy-lsd-and-cannabis-14544981.html

 

The British Government's chief drug adviser has sparked controversy by claiming ecstasy, LSD and cannabis are less dangerous than cigarettes and alcohol.

 

Professor David Nutt, chairman of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, attacked the decision to make cannabis a class B drug.

 

He accused former home secretary Jacqui Smith, who reclassified the drug, of "distorting and devaluing" scientific research.

 

Prof Nutt said smoking cannabis created only a "relatively small risk" of psychotic illness.

 

I was beginning to wonder if there was some sort of genetic predisposition to schizophrenia in the British population or something...

[foodchain]

Before you read my question, please know that I really only want answers from scientists, doctors, OR people who are experts or have extensivly researched the subject.

 

I'm NOT looking for answers from baised people. This includes anti-drug activists that don't think anyone should smoke marjuana, and also includes people who overly advocate marijuana, worshipping it and refusing to beleive that any adverse effects can come from it.

 

--

MY QUESTION:

My question is, can the use of marjuana have any permanent effects on the mind?

This includes, loss of memories that happened while NOT high (childhood memories, etc.). Or maybe damaging your ability to remember memories that are created years after the user quits?

Or maybe loss of brain cells? If so, can proof be provided? I read a long article about marijuana's effects on the brain cells, and I forget exactly what it said, plus it was very complicated, but i think it said that something in marijuana will kill the cells, but another thing (i forget if it's in marijuana or your brain) will prevent the cell from dying.

So if marjuana causes any permanent changes, losses, or damages to the human mind, I'd like to be informed.

--

 

The reason that I'm asking this, to give you a little background info-- I'm an occasional marijuana smoker/eater, and when I started, I was soming about once a week, then eventually once a month, and currently I haven't smoked or eaten (brownies, oil, etc) marijuana in atleast 5 months. But when I DO consume marijuana, I always try to get as high as I can, and sometimes hallucinate, because I usually comsume very potent sativa strains, which are more psychedelic. I get so high that my mind feelz hazy weeks after.

My older cousin used to be a bigtime pothead, but he tries not to smoke so much now, and tells me not to, and says that he thinks it will damage my brain.

I value my mind very much, and want to make sure that I don't change it with drugs.

But I LOVE to get high so will it really do anything bad if induldge just once a month?

 

Thanks in advance to anyone who answers my question. I will apprieciate it very much.

 

If you use it in a recreational manner I don't see how it could hurt you anymore then using caffeine. As far as studies go I have seen lots of them that support that it does cause harm, and lots that state that it does not cause harm, I think the bias even goes into the science. If you maintaining a haze, where it might be easy to day dream constantly you are probably using to much, more so if this persists even after you stop using for weeks on end. Then again you said you actually hallucinated from it, which I have never heard of myself from anyone I have known that actually inhales.

 

Overdose is practically impossible unless you go through steps that would be highly irrational in the first place. Then again you can overdose on water.

 

Bottom line to me is from what I know that marijuana is no more dangerous then many other products people consume on a regular basis that happen to be totally legal, like cheeseburgers.

[DrP]

I was beginning to wonder if there was some sort of genetic predisposition to schizophrenia in the British population or something...

The thing is with the currebt British government at the moment is that they are very biased and tell lies. If results came out to suggest that THC wasn't that dangerous then they would not report it for "fear of sending the wrong message". They aren’t interested in finding out the truth - they are only interested in (rightly or wrongly) in scaremongering people into abstinence.

 

Not just with THC - they twist facts from all studdies on many different subjects - no-one believes a word they say anymore. They only seem interested in their own propagana and think we are all too stupid to realise it.

 

 

 

Their argument was that 1 in 4 Britons has some sort of genetic anomaly which makes them susceptible to cannabis-induced schizophrenia. They took the cameras into a mental ward and interviewed doctors calling it an epidemic.

 

How many of these canabis uses were also on other mind bending drugs? How many of them were crazy anyway?!

 

If a crazy man takes drugs, it isn't nescessarily the drugs that have made him crazy. It's like saying "Alcohol makes people violant" - well yes, it seems to maker those who already have violant tendencies to show them, but to issue a blanket statement saying that alcohol makes people violant would be untrue.

 

 

 

Anyway - sorry - the OP suggested he didn't wat to hear from people with a bias...I might be a bit biased, it's probably because they are all out to get me!

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

Uncanny - Here: Government Scientist for stating sacked for stating that canabis is less harmful than alcohol.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224162/Drug-tsar-claimed-ecstasy-LSD-harmful-alcohol-sacked.html

 

It doesn't fit in with what the government WANT us to think, regardless of the truth. So they got rid of him.

Edited October 30, 2009 by DrP
Consecutive posts merged.

[iNow]

It doesn't fit in with what the government WANT us to think, regardless of the truth. So they got rid of him.

 

The Bush administration was pretty notorious for doing that with climate scientists.

[Moontanman]

Does cannabis permanently effect the brain? Maybe we are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Does anything we come contact with not effect us in some permanent way? The real question here asks does cannabis effect us in some way that is worse than some other thing or so bad it will significantly inhibit us in some manner. The list of things that effect us in some "bad" way is so long to really get a grip all things must be compared to each other for the questions to make sense.

[Sactor]

There are many studies to show that Marijuana is anti-cancerous and has many great medical effects. Take this into account before thinking this plant is a harmful drug that the US Government is not profiting off of this "Drug." Instead Alcohol which REALLY does damage your brain because Alcohol is slightly toxic, and enough of it and you can do severe damage or cause death, amongst other things like liver damage. The US Government has been ambivalent about this subject and has not spent the proper funding to research Marijuana as a possible medicine. It's no coincidence that numerous states have legalized for medical use at state level. Doctors who have studied this subject in over 13 states have all agreed that it is a very helpful plant, and one of the most versatile forms of medication that exists today. It cures pain, helps with anxiety in types that are tolerable to it and also can help depression. It can also help a user who is very negative about reality, it can actually change a person's subjective reality into something more palatable. It can unlock doors to understand within yourself the deepest levels of your being. To unveil things you once were oblivious too, it is not too good to be true. The negative is some short-term memory loss while the THC is active in your system and the effects are at the highest level. And some users like myself(by the way I have a medical card this is legal lol) don't have that problem after a long time of smoking because the body is so used to the THC. Also another interesting detail is that we have cannabinoid receptors naturally existing in our brain, and THC and other cannabinoids in Marijuana like CBD that helps alleviate symptoms and is not psychoactive(mood/mind altering) like THC is, which can help as well with mood and pain. Scientists are discovering that Marijuana's non psychoactive compounds can possibly treat psychiatric symptoms because it can have an anti-psychotic effect on some. Again, not enough research and study has been done to fully uncover the wonders and marvel of this beautiful and aromatic plant. But if you just put two and two together you can see this is not too hard to figure out. It can mitigate symptoms in some and can provoke more in some, it's all based on everyone's specific genetics and reactions to this plant. Because of legality and moral views, any adverse reaction is highly overplayed by opponents of it and because there has never been a documented death from it, and yet alcohol is highly regarded in our society and societies worldwide, but it is responsible for millions of dollars in healthcare costs directly associated to damages from usage/overusage. You can be your own judge, but I'd prefer to light up and day over drinking a poisonous substance like Alcohol, which is cunning in the highest form, it destroys your body inside and out. With mild usage Alcohol can be safe, but Marijuana doesn't impair a driver nearly as much as Alcohol. Thanks for hearing my point of view! hope some agree!

[random]

I support marijuana use BUT thought I'd post this anyway here's a link for you to check out

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-teenage-mind/201102/does-marijuana-cause-cancer

 

There is not alot of "quality research" into the effects of marijuana on brain or just health in general but there is alot of research into tobacco so my thinking is since the two contain many similar toxic chemicals I believe you could prioritize them based on largest quantities present then do some research to see if these chemicals are scientifically proven to damage the brain and then draw your own conclusions.

Of course some die hard smoker will probably say that the unique cannabinoids only found in marijuana will somehow cancel out the effects of the toxic chemicals ( and OJ Simpson is innocent, Bill Clinton never inhaled etc.)

 

Now does THC permanently effect the brain? I dunno, that's probably what you really want to know because vaporizers supposedly only emit THC bypassing all the nasty compounds.

[too-open-minded]

I started smoking marijuana when I was 12. I have probably induced more tetrahydrocannabinol than most people will in their lives.

 

I made really good grades and had an awesome memory until I started smoking. I was taking advanced math courses from the 4th-7th grade. Then I started hating math and lost my ambition to do things. Although that somewhat could have been teenage hormones.

 

Regardless marijuana has ruined my memory and I think made me somewhat dyslexic, It never really started until after I started smoking but words will jumble up when I read them. I'll say one thing meaning another and won't notice it. I'll be writing and write the same word twice, things like that. Also I used to always remember my dreams, now I never do.

 

Marijuana does do damage to your brain, although I still seem to function well and i'm not a burnout stoner anymore. I don't think its that bad. To answer your question though, yes marijuana has indefinitely done damage to my memory, the other things I would assume were also somewhat due to marijuana.

[sysD]

Does it alter your brain chemistry? Yes.

Is that synonymous with "Brain Damage?" No.

As someone else here mentioned, its not really a matter of whether or not there are detrimental effects. Its the gauge of those effects when compared to other acceptable substances, such as alcohol or caffeine.

 

 

Its impossible to get a truly scientific answer until the study of the brain advances to the level at which we now study other systems of the body.

Ask your question again in ten years.

[iNow]

Ask your question again in ten years.

He'll probably forget.

[tkadm30]

An evident misconception is that cannabinoids permanently damage brain cells. In fact, cannabinoids are neuroprotective compounds used to treat a range of clinical conditions, including multiple sclerosis and alzheimer disease. Cannabinoids also promote proneurogenic factors (BDNF) and neurogenesis (the formation of new neurons).

[StringJunky]

An evident misconception...

So, where's the evidence? If the NIH isn't conclusive about it how can you be? It's conclusion:

 

 

What are marijuana's long-term effects on the brain?

 

....The ability to draw definitive conclusions about marijuana’s long-term impact on the human brain from past studies is often limited by the fact that study participants use multiple substances, and there is often limited data about the participants’ health or mental functioning prior to the study. Over the next decade, the National Institutes of Health is funding a major longitudinal study that will track a large sample of young Americans from late childhood (before first use of drugs) to early adulthood. The study will use neuroimaging and other advanced tools to clarify precisely how and to what extent marijuana and other substances, alone and in combination, affect adolescent brain development.

[tkadm30]

Nice words. But obviously this statement is suffering from severe scientific dishonesty, since it omit to mention the neuroprotective potential of cannabinoids. Cognitive dissonance or scientific dishonesty? You decide...

[DrKrettin]

Nice words. But obviously this statement is suffering from severe scientific dishonesty, since it omit to mention the neuroprotective potential of cannabinoids. Cognitive dissonance or scientific dishonesty? You decide...

 

It looks to me like total honesty in recognizing that they don't have enough reliable data to draw any kind of conclusion. Where is the dishonesty there?