Virtual free energy

[Baby Astronaut]

Not what you're thinking

 

At least not quite.

 

Virtual particles wink into existence throughout all of space. Can it be possible in the future to grab and isolate those particles for conversion to usable energy before they wink out again?

 

If so, might it be the ticket to free energy? Assuming of course it takes less energy input to harness their output of energy.

 

 

Side question: what happens if the virtual particles don't return to the vaccuum energy of space? Does the non-virtual Universe's total energy increase?

[Edtharan]

This might be of interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

 

Although the Casimir effect does cause the plates to move, it takes more energy than you can get from harnessing that movement to separate them again. Sadly, although you could generate electricity from such an effect, you could not generate more energy that you took to make it.

[Severian]

I must admit, I have never really understood the Casimir effect.

[swansont]

If so, might it be the ticket to free energy? Assuming of course it takes less energy input to harness their output of energy.

 

A virtual particle generally has less energy than the corresponding real particle. You have to add energy to make them real.

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I must admit, I have never really understood the Casimir effect.

 

Ten-second Casimir force summary:

 

Zero point energy for an oscillator is [math]\frac{\hbar\omega_n}{2}[/math] for each mode

 

Putting conducting plates near each other modifies the EM boundary conditions and excludes some of the modes. The zero-point energy density inside is lower than outside, which gives you a force.

[Severian]

Ten-second Casimir force summary:

 

I think I understood it on that level, thanks. I was more talking about the level of the discussion in the last paragraph of page 8 of this review. QFT and its discussions of vacuum energy become very muddled when one has physical objects nearby to impose boundary conditions.

 

I am sure I would understand it if I could be bothered to read that article in full though.... (which I may have to do, since I am supposed to teach this stuff next year )

[occam]

I must admit, I have never really understood the Casimir effect.

I can’t see why there is so much excitement about this.

 

It is clear from slit experiments and the pinhole camera that an “aperture” excludes wavelengths longer than the “aperture”

 

In “space” the “black body” temperature is obtained from the average wavelength of photons in the volume. The presence of two plates in close proximity would exclude wavelengths longer than the distance between the plates, constraining these to the shorter wavelengths, and therefore reducing the “black body” temperature.

Since E = kT, there is an energy gradient between the outside and inside of the plates.

However exploiting this is another matter

 

“Occam”

[Edtharan]

I can’t see why there is so much excitement about this.

 

It is clear from slit experiments and the pinhole camera that an “aperture” excludes wavelengths longer than the “aperture”

 

In “space” the “black body” temperature is obtained from the average wavelength of photons in the volume. The presence of two plates in close proximity would exclude wavelengths longer than the distance between the plates, constraining these to the shorter wavelengths, and therefore reducing the “black body” temperature.

Since E = kT, there is an energy gradient between the outside and inside of the plates.

However exploiting this is another matter

 

“Occam”

You can even see this with boats. When there is waves on the surface of water, some of them will have long wavelengths, and others will have short wavelengths. If two boats are near each other they will exclude the long wavelength waves from between them.

 

This means there is less energy imparted to the boats from the waves in between them as compared to outside of them. This causes a force on the boats that pushes them together (this also works with boats next to a dock as well).

 

So, although in the Casimir effect, the source of these waves are cause by the uncertainty principal, the effect caused by the exclusion of wavelengths can be seen in classical physics as well.

[5614]

Side question: what happens if the virtual particles don't return to the vaccuum energy of space? Does the non-virtual Universe's total energy increase?

The entire universe cannot increase in energy, that would violate the law of conservation of energy. The fluctuations, on average, all cancel each other out.

[Bob_for_short]

I must admit, I have never really understood the Casimir effect.

 

It depends on derivation. The Casimir effect can be understood as a kind of Van der Waals force which is more physical than "vacuum fluctuation" in a space.

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You can even see this with boats. When there is waves on the surface of water, some of them will have long wavelengths, and others will have short wavelengths. If two boats are near each other they will exclude the long wavelength waves from between them.

 

This means there is less energy imparted to the boats from the waves in between them as compared to outside of them. This causes a force on the boats that pushes them together (this also works with boats next to a dock as well).

 

This is the most misleading analogy. The water waves are external here. With the same success you can use the gas pressures inside and outside of some "bottle".

 

So, although in the Casimir effect, the source of these waves are cause by the uncertainty principal, the effect caused by the exclusion of wavelengths can be seen in classical physics as well.

 

Uncertainty principle is a vague "explication". The spectrum exclusion is an idealization. In fact, it is an interaction of neutralized charges at a distance. The charges are never free from the quantized EMF. I would say, the quantized EMF is a property of each charge. Thus the (neutralized) charge potential interaction at long distances is an interaction of compound systems, just like atom-atomic interaction at long distances (Van der Waals or so).

Edited August 25, 2009 by Bob_for_short
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[insane_alien]

bob, its an analogy, push it too far and it breaks.

[Bob_for_short]

bob, its an analogy, push it too far and it breaks.

 

I agree. That is why I prefer more realistic analogies or explications.

 

Look at the original post: "Virtual particles wink into existence throughout all of space." It is just wrong but commonly accepted.

 

Now look at an atom (of Hydrogen, for example). The electron is bound to a nucleus. We can speak of electron fluctuations in the whole space but it is not possible without an atom. The vacuum here is just the atomic ground state. The same is valid for the quantized EMF - its "fluctuations" are not possible without a charge so no virtual particles are present in an empty space.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Bob_for_short

[Baby Astronaut]

Look at the original post: "Virtual particles wink into existence throughout all of space." It is just wrong but commonly accepted.

Huh. So what's the correct view then?

[Mr Skeptic]

If Hawking radiation exists, then virtual particles can be used to convert a black hole into pure energy (the black hole sucks one of the pair in, losing energy in the process). However the calculations I did showed that it would be nearly impossible and/or dangerous.

[Edtharan]

If Hawking radiation exists, then virtual particles can be used to convert a black hole into pure energy (the black hole sucks one of the pair in, losing energy in the process). However the calculations I did showed that it would be nearly impossible and/or dangerous.

Just as a wild speculation: What if you could create a situation where an Electric field was powerful enough that the "escape velocity" of an oppositely charged particle would exceed the speed of light. A sort of Electrical "Black Hole". The Electromagnetic force is 10^36 times as strong as the Gravitational force.

 

Would such a situation be possible?

[Bob_for_short]

Just as a wild speculation: What if you could create a situation where an Electric field was powerful enough that the "escape velocity" of an oppositely charged particle would exceed the speed of light. A sort of Electrical "Black Hole". The Electromagnetic force is 10^36 times as strong as the Gravitational force. Would such a situation be possible?

 

Of course! Any potential exceeding the particle kinetic energy is "reflecting" for the particle.

 

In particular, in accelerator physics for electrons there is a notion (an effect) of a virtual cathode.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Bob_for_short

[Mr Skeptic]

Just as a wild speculation: What if you could create a situation where an Electric field was powerful enough that the "escape velocity" of an oppositely charged particle would exceed the speed of light. A sort of Electrical "Black Hole". The Electromagnetic force is 10^36 times as strong as the Gravitational force.

 

Would such a situation be possible?

 

More than likely it would be impossible to form and/or would destroy itself. Because to be so attractive to opposite charge, it must likewise be that repulsive to itself. Alternately, via the same mechanism for Hawking radiation, it might "radiate" charged particles to reduce its charge.

[Bob_for_short]

The entire universe cannot increase in energy, that would violate the law of conservation of energy. The fluctuations, on average, all cancel each other out.

 

The vacuum is a stationary state with a certain (the lowest possible) energy. There is no energy fluctuations here, there is nothing to harness.

[Edtharan]

More than likely it would be impossible to form and/or would destroy itself. Because to be so attractive to opposite charge, it must likewise be that repulsive to itself. Alternately, via the same mechanism for Hawking radiation, it might "radiate" charged particles to reduce its charge.

Good point. It should blast itself apart because to generate a charge on something, you need to ahve charged particles. But, because they are the same charge, if you have a field powerful enough to have and escape velocity that exceeds light speed, then it must also repel itself with that same force. The charged particles that go into forming the field will be accelerated out with that force.

 

As further speculation, what if you could ahve this force exceed that of the attractive force between a pair of virtual particles (say an electron/positron virtual pair)?

 

The effect I am think one would see in this situation would be a "tunnelling" of charge between the poles.

 

The point I am getting to is, what if you could generate this force, not with a charge directly, but with a magnetic field. As the virtual particle pair will ahve some velocity, as they move through a magnetic field they will experience a force in opposite directions.

 

If you could then some how cause these virtual particles to interact with normal matter (ie: the virtual positron annihilating with a real electron to satisfy the conservation of energy), could you see a tunnelling effect that builds up charge between two powerful magnets (there would be capture plates between the magnets to collect the tunnelling particles).

 

This is of course, speculation, but as this thread is about free energy buy capturing virtual particles, I though this would be one way to do so.