Telepathy is not illogical...

[iNow]

the colours(if there are any on the particular camera) are artificial.

 

usually they correspond to temperature.

 

has bugger all to do with emotions or telepathy though.

 

I tend to agree with you, DH, and Mokele. This is a load of nonsense based on little more than wish thinking. However, just to clarify one point, our emotions will effect bloodflow to our head and face (angry, you get red, shy you blush, etc.) so there will be different colors on the face, as well as different thermal signatures depending on the amount of blood.

 

However, just to reiterate so nobody gets me wrong, telepathy is crap. There are far better explanations for the phenomenon being described (such as gestures, cues, intuition, unconscious problem solving/recognition, the ability to cold read, etc) and calling it telepathy is a form of lazy shorthand and is without merit. Not to mention the fact that we over-remember coincidence and under-remember all of the times where nothing happens at all.

[timetes]

I tend to agree with you, DH, and Mokele. This is a load of nonsense based on little more than wish thinking. However, just to clarify one point, our emotions will effect bloodflow to our head and face (angry, you get red, shy you blush, etc.) so there will be different colors on the face, as well as different thermal signatures depending on the amount of blood.

 

However, just to reiterate so nobody gets me wrong, telepathy is crap. There are far better explanations for the phenomenon being described (such as gestures, cues, intuition, unconscious problem solving/recognition, the ability to cold read, etc) and calling it telepathy is a form of lazy shorthand and is without merit. Not to mention the fact that we over-remember coincidence and under-remember all of the times where nothing happens at all.

 

only talking about thermal imaging: right with the termal signatures.....can they detect pain.... i saw a show/read......that they could detect one lying?

 

oh and this is for the electrical stuff.....http://science.howstuffworks.com/shc1.htm

think its static electricity....one theary

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also this magnet stuff giving off electic energy.....if i read this correctly

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090903163725.htm

so when one say's its impossible......look at the unconventional....not in books.

[iNow]

Detection of lies is more related to micro twitches in muscles of the face... strain patterns. Again, it's not necessary to invoke this unproven idea of telepathy to explain it. Other explanations are far more likely and the evidence is in their favor.

[insane_alien]

they cannot detect lying. they can detect changes in bloodflow to your face, this could be caused by lying, or you getting a hot flush. the pattern will be the same. as the blood vessels do not change position depending on what your thinking about.

 

i don't know what the hell your links have got to do with this. but i do like that the second one is based on a peer reviewed journal and then you tell us not to look there. contradict yourself much?

[timetes]

they cannot detect lying. they can detect changes in bloodflow to your face, this could be caused by lying, or you getting a hot flush. the pattern will be the same. as the blood vessels do not change position depending on what your thinking about.

 

i don't know what the hell your links have got to do with this. but i do like that the second one is based on a peer reviewed journal and then you tell us not to look there. contradict yourself much?

 

I got in a little trouble because I snapped at you in a prior post in a "electricity forum"......but you constantly put me down, discredit or make me out to be a nut. The contradiction was really for you....you being closed minded in a science forum. where oh where did i state not to look there?

[mooeypoo]

Thread moved to Pseudoscience and Speculation.

 

Please be advised that though this is the rightful place for scientific hypothesis and speculation, these still must hold to scientific methodology. That is, the evidence put forth should be consistent, and peer-reviewed articles should be put forth if a conclusion is drawn.

 

 

~moo

[J.C.MacSwell]

Telepathy is not illogical or impossible, Telepathy uses brainwaves. This can be simply more subtle, smaller and as of yet not measurable by present day scientific instruments. If the brain can send and give off brainwaves then it can also receive them, especially if you tune in...

 

I won't comment on the "brainwaves" part, but otherwise it is obviously not illogical or impossible, unless it is impossible to biologically duplicate the basics of a cell phone.

 

Somewhere in the Universe, some species likely uses telepathy IMO.

 

So for my part, I will agree it is not illogical.

[mooeypoo]

Sure, the basic concept of telepathy isn't all that far fetched, if only there were such things as brain waves that were "transmitted".

 

As it turns out, those were never proven to exist.

[JillSwift]

I won't comment on the "brainwaves" part, but otherwise it is obviously not illogical or impossible, unless it is impossible to biologically duplicate the basics of a cell phone.

 

Somewhere in the Universe, some species likely uses telepathy IMO.

 

So for my part, I will agree it is not illogical.

Y'know, as a matter of the purest speculation, I have to admit it seems perfectly plausible that a species somewhere could evolve a mechanism to pass information that was non-verbal and non-visual and non-audible.

 

Of course, I see this sort of speculation the same way I see good fiction writing. Fun, sure. Useful, not so much.

[iNow]

Let's look at the thread title for a moment. When you take out the double negative, it can be restated thusly:

 

"Telepathy is logical."

 

 

This is plainly false. There is zero evidence suggesting the phenomenon exists. All events described as "telepathic" can be better explained by other phenomenon, all of which have evidence in support. So, the logical explanation is that, while telepathy is possible, it is not the best explanation of these events, and when it comes to evidence it is still wanting. The evidence is absent. The idea of telepathy is supported (right now) by nothing other than wish thinking and willful ignorance of counter explanations.

 

Thus, the claim "telepathy is logical" is itself not logical.

[insane_alien]

......but you constantly put me down, discredit or make me out to be a nut.

 

no, i constantly do that to your claim that you are being targeted by highly experimental weaponry and based on this claim that you may suffer from paranoia which can be indicative of a deeper problem. i suggested that you seek proffesional advice about that as it really will help.

 

The contradiction was really for you....you being closed minded in a science forum. where oh where did i state not to look there?

 

there is a difference between skepticism and closed mindedness

[swansont]

Let's look at the thread title for a moment. When you take out the double negative, it can be restated thusly:

 

"Telepathy is logical."

 

 

This is plainly false. There is zero evidence suggesting the phenomenon exists. All events described as "telepathic" can be better explained by other phenomenon, all of which have evidence in support. So, the logical explanation is that, while telepathy is possible, it is not the best explanation of these events, and when it comes to evidence it is still wanting. The evidence is absent. The idea of telepathy is supported (right now) by nothing other than wish thinking and willful ignorance of counter explanations.

 

Thus, the claim "telepathy is logical" is itself not logical.

 

 

Telepathy is a logical thing to test, to see if the brain can do these things. But, as you and others have stated, there is no scientific evidence to support the claim. The reasoning used to support telepathy has been debunked.

 

The claim that telepathy is real, despite the inability to measure the mechanism or the results, is illogical.

[J.C.MacSwell]

Let's look at the thread title for a moment. When you take out the double negative, it can be restated thusly:

 

"Telepathy is logical."

 

 

This is plainly false. There is zero evidence suggesting the phenomenon exists. All events described as "telepathic" can be better explained by other phenomenon, all of which have evidence in support. So, the logical explanation is that, while telepathy is possible, it is not the best explanation of these events, and when it comes to evidence it is still wanting. The evidence is absent. The idea of telepathy is supported (right now) by nothing other than wish thinking and willful ignorance of counter explanations.

 

Thus, the claim "telepathy is logical" is itself not logical.

 

This changes the meaning. Not illogical to exist, does not mean something logically exists.

[StringJunky]

to move as one so to speak for the reason you stated. I had never noticed a domino effect as you called it. It appeared to me that the birds on the outer edges of these flocks moved at the same time as those in front or in the center. I have not yet seen this in slow motion and for that reason will still with hold judgement. But I accept your explanation as a valid one with that caveat. Thank you for your thoughtful response. ...dr.syntax

 

That's ok....my pleasure.

 

If you look at this immense flock of starlings closely, you will see the effect as a dark wave passing through the flock as they sequentially change direction...you might need to watch it a couple of times first to follow what's happening within the flock and find a 'leading edge' which is frequently changing position. I hope you can see it.

 

Edited September 7, 2009 by StringJunky

[iNow]

This changes the meaning. Not illogical to exist, does not mean something logically exists.

 

Which is why I said this:

 

 

So, the logical explanation is that, while telepathy is possible, it is not the best explanation of these events, and when it comes to evidence it is still wanting.

 

 

While I take your point, I want to note that the issue had already been handled in the 34 posts before mine.

[D H]

I tend to agree with you, DH, and Mokele.

I was being a bit obscure, I guess. The following referred to Widdekind's pretty posting style, not the infrared issue.

oh and widdekind......i lov you -your post are so interesting...and so logical.[/quote']Nonsense, even nonsense all dressed up in pretty colors, is still nonsense.

 

 

 

Back to the topic at hand:

However, just to reiterate so nobody gets me wrong, telepathy is crap.

Just to reiterate, so nobody gets me wrong: I completely agree with iNow. We don't have pit organs, so unlike put vipers and constrictors, we cannot see in the infrared. The premise is bogus.

[Edtharan]

I think there might be something to it. Have you ever noticed how some flocks of birds move as one at times. I have also seen this with schools of fish. It is not a gradual change in direction but seemingly instantaniously they all change direction simultaniously,together in a co-ordinated way so as to not run into each other. That seems like it could be some form of mental telepathy. ...ds

I came to this thread late and was just skimming it. But this caught my eye.

 

As I am a computer programmer and have an interest in AI, I know that this has been solved (I have even written a program that does this).

 

The program I based mine on is called "Boids" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boids ).

 

The idea is really simple. You only need 3 rules to make an entity flock.

 

1) Face the same direction as my nearest neighbours.

2) Move towards my nearest neighbours.

3) Don't get too close to anything.

 

These 3 rules are all that is needed. Notice also, that it only needs to know about the nearest objects. Thus, when one moves, the other moves to match. Any signals that are needed can be easily transmitted over that short distance without the need for a "Group Mind" (telepathy).

 

As each individual is on constant alert for any change in its neighbours, its response to that change is very fast.

 

And if you have watched flocks of animals, they don't all instantly move together (although for fast moving animals like small fish) you might need a high speed camera to slow it down. You can also see interesting patterns form in the flocks, like waves/ripples that move through the flock (this is caused by the non-instantaneous reaction).

[SilverRevlis]

I would like to ask why you would move this topic to Pseudo Science and Speculation when whole University's, especially University of Utrecht in the Netherlands, devote whole studies to this topic, plenty of money and it is taking very seriously. As you can see, this is also a popular topic.

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To add, I cannot more agree with your statement, I myself am only saying we need new and better experiments, like the Interfere With The Fan, and even better to actually show words on a computer screen which someone is projecting... outdated experiments like cards and such are not sufficient

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There is no ether, and have you noticed that in order to detect brainwaves, we need to actually affix electrodes to the head?

 

You have a better chance of telepathically detecting muscle activity, because muscle produce much, much more powerful signals.

 

 

 

Yes, actually, it does. Even *if* we accept that there's some sort of signal radiation from the brain, it decreases to the cube of distance. And given that we cannot detect brainwaves without specialized instruments just on the outside of the skull, that means you'd have immense difficulty transmitting a thought even across a small room.

 

 

 

There are no sensory receptors in the brain.

 

None. For anything. No senses at all. That's why you can do brain surgery without putting a patient fully under - there's no pain receptors.

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It's also worth asking why other animals don't have it? Why do they rely on pheremones and vision? We don't have anything they don't, and they've got plenty of senses we don't. To think that something as useful as telepathy has only cropped up in one species out of trillions is silly.

A. Saying there is no ether, the ether medium, is saying there is no radio and/or microwave communication. Maybe, that's just the problem... the experiments so far only do stick electrodes on your head in outdated EEG scans. And, once again, saying your head is isolated in the void of space not emmitting waves is truly ridiculous...

B. No, difficulty due to the lack of evolution and training in humans does not mean impossibility. Effort exerted can be more energy... see comic strips...

C. The point about a 'receptor' in the brain, as described, is similar if not the same as your ears picking up waves/vibrations and then your brain section translating it... it is most likely that human has just not evolved and/or trained for such...

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Telepathic abilities correlate to brain structures involved in "higher intelligence", like "the Frontal & Parietal Lobes (Sixth Sense), Temporal Lobes (Clairvoyance), & Occipital Lobes (Remote Viewing)". Please see bullet points 1-3 in the post below, which cites specific sources (points 4+ are speculations based upon said cited sources, and are not directly relevant to your specific point):

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=156634&hl=;

 

CONCLUSION: Telepathic abilities would only arise with "higher intelligence", which has only appeared relatively recently amongst mammalian primates.

Thank you, I myself was going to bring up different parts of the human brain which can be responsible for Telepathy, such as the hypothalumus, front lobes, cognitive centres

and occipital lobes. It is just simply underdeveloped, not yet developed, not yet evolved and/or is a tiny percentage of gene selection. This would be, of course, to protect the human who would in the first instance go insane with all the signalled information.

[ydoaPs]

A. Saying there is no ether, the ether medium, is saying there is no radio and/or microwave communication.

 

Uh, no. It's been demonstrably proven that there is no Aether.

[SilverRevlis]

Why would you invoke the notion of telepathy when much simpler explanations exist and are readily available (for example, changes in the water density, electric sensing, etc.)?

 

http://www.skepdic.com/telepath.html

You're actually not to far off here... Telepathy can be confused with Light Telekenesis... how can I tell the difference between what I am hearing, like soft sissing or voices in the background which my ears pick up and genuine Telepathy? The answer is that Telepathy is not limited by distance, it comes in the forms of thoughts and can be interpreted as sound by the brain if it gets to cross-wired. So, distinctly, it is not exactly the same as turning on your radio and hearing volume, though indeed similar...

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Uh, no. It's been demonstrably proven that there is no Aether.

By who...? Radio and Microwave go through the ether medium...

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I tend to agree with you, DH, and Mokele. This is a load of nonsense based on little more than wish thinking. However, just to clarify one point, our emotions will effect bloodflow to our head and face (angry, you get red, shy you blush, etc.) so there will be different colors on the face, as well as different thermal signatures depending on the amount of blood.

 

However, just to reiterate so nobody gets me wrong, telepathy is crap. There are far better explanations for the phenomenon being described (such as gestures, cues, intuition, unconscious problem solving/recognition, the ability to cold read, etc) and calling it telepathy is a form of lazy shorthand and is without merit. Not to mention the fact that we over-remember coincidence and under-remember all of the times where nothing happens at all.

I have already stated myself that such outdated experiments are not valid, so your argument is weak. If one can at this time communicate over many km's with mobiles and technology using the laws of physics then how in anyway can the human brain be exempt from these natural laws. The point remains, one can send information remotely and even make it audible, it is therefore not impossible for thoughts to be transmitted, just not withing present scientific and/or technological development to prove... see other messages...

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This changes the meaning. Not illogical to exist, does not mean something logically exists.

If you apply your argument to only certain events then you may be right. But, I am talking about the global possibility of being able to transmit your thoughts... Your whole being even has its own resonation frequency, your body, your heart, your brain all give off waves and signals... what you want to apply this to, is your choice, it does not take away from the potential ability within even genetics to transmit and receive thoughts. So, it is neither illogical nor impossible. Science, whose duty it is to explain the invisible, just has not developed enough in this area. For Science to believe anything it has to be shown on a computer screen. This, of course, provides unique problems, but it warrants investigation...

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I came to this thread late and was just skimming it. But this caught my eye.

 

As I am a computer programmer and have an interest in AI, I know that this has been solved (I have even written a program that does this).

 

The program I based mine on is called "Boids" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boids ).

 

The idea is really simple. You only need 3 rules to make an entity flock.

 

1) Face the same direction as my nearest neighbours.

2) Move towards my nearest neighbours.

3) Don't get too close to anything.

 

These 3 rules are all that is needed. Notice also, that it only needs to know about the nearest objects. Thus, when one moves, the other moves to match. Any signals that are needed can be easily transmitted over that short distance without the need for a "Group Mind" (telepathy).

 

As each individual is on constant alert for any change in its neighbours, its response to that change is very fast.

 

And if you have watched flocks of animals, they don't all instantly move together (although for fast moving animals like small fish) you might need a high speed camera to slow it down. You can also see interesting patterns form in the flocks, like waves/ripples that move through the flock (this is caused by the non-instantaneous reaction).

Thank you, as you can see there is inherent in Nature amongst many animals a non-auditory group form of communication. It matters very little if this is 'non-intelligent' or 'primitive'.

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This changes the meaning. Not illogical to exist, does not mean something logically exists.

Now, you are arguing semantics... if you read it correctly my statements clearly provide a lot of evidence for the actual existence of Telepathy. And the ability to transmit and receive data is inherent in the laws of Nature. see other messages...

[JillSwift]

I would like to ask why you would move this topic to Pseudo Science and Speculation when whole University's, especially University of Utrecht in the Netherlands, devote whole studies to this topic, plenty of money and it is taking very seriously. As you can see, this is also a popular topic.

Argument from authority. Appeal to popularity.

 

To add, I cannot more agree with your statement, I myself am only saying we need new and better experiments, like the Interfere With The Fan, and even better to actually show words on a computer screen which someone is projecting... outdated experiments like cards and such are not sufficient

As "Telepathy" is nothing more than transferring information though means other than verbal, visual, or tactile, the medium used to control what information is to be transferred is utterly irrelevant.

 

A. Saying there is no ether, the ether medium, is saying there is no radio and/or microwave communication. Maybe, that's just the problem... the experiments so far only do stick electrodes on your head in outdated EEG scans. And, once again, saying your head is isolated in the void of space not emmitting waves is truly ridiculous...

Repeating an idea does not make it true. The Aether has long since been discarded due to lack of evidence for it, and theories that fit the facts better without postulating it.

 

B. No, difficulty due to the lack of evolution and training in humans does not mean impossibility. Effort exerted can be more energy... see comic strips...

Comic strips?

 

C. The point about a 'receptor' in the brain, as described, is similar if not the same as your ears picking up waves/vibrations and then your brain section translating it... it is most likely that human has just not evolved and/or trained for such...

 

Thank you, I myself was going to bring up different parts of the human brain which can be responsible for Telepathy, such as the hypothalumus, front lobes, cognitive centres

and occipital lobes. It is just simply underdeveloped, not yet developed, not yet evolved and/or is a tiny percentage of gene selection. This would be, of course, to protect the human who would in the first instance go insane with all the signalled information.

Um... if the human brain has not evolved telepathy, then telepathy does not exist. If telepathy does not exist, how can we start talking about what parts of the brain are responsible for it? Can you not see the circular reasoning you are using?

 

And that is why this got moved to the speculation forum.

[StringJunky]

When we can change the the laws of Nature and the Universe at will or evolve, then we might have telepathic abilities ....in a million years or three.

 

Seriously, notions and arguments for telepathic ability start from the premise of belief and not as a result of direct observation under scientific conditions with results that are statistically meaningful... as yet. Until this happens, in the eyes of mainstream science, it does not exist. That's the most accommodating science can be, at the moment, to the idea of telepathy.

 

It is my opinion that much of this desire for paranormal phenomena to exist and the idea of spiritual selves etc stems from a deep dissatisfaction with what we have, what we know and our impending mortality ie ...there's GOT to be more than this. They appear to be symptoms of over- imaginative desperation.

 

It is not my intent to ridicule since even the most rational and logical amongst us hold dear at least one irrational or illogical belief, outside the field of scientific debate.

 

For instance, I won't catch a fish if I get my weighing scales out ready for it in anticipation!

[ydoaPs]

By who...? Radio and Microwave go through the ether medium...

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By Albert Michelson and Edward Morley.

[iNow]

I have already stated myself that such outdated experiments are not valid, so your argument is weak.

Your statement alone is not enough to negate my point. All you did was to make an assertion. You have failed to support that assertion with any evidence whatsoever. Ergo, the weak argument resides solely in your own posts.

 

 

 

If one can at this time communicate over many km's with mobiles and technology using the laws of physics then how in anyway can the human brain be exempt from these natural laws.

Are you now suggesting that the human mind relays signals via satellites to other human minds? That's a rather peculiar suggestion, but whatever.

 

 

 

For Science to believe anything it has to be shown on a computer screen.

Zuh? WTF are you talking about?

 

 

 

Now, you are arguing semantics... if you read it correctly my statements clearly provide a lot of evidence for the actual existence of Telepathy.

Can you please provide the post number(s) where you provided "a lot of evidence for the actual existence of Telepathy?" I have seen zero "actual evidence," and I find your claim above spurious.

 

 

When we can change the the laws of Nature and the Universe at will or evolve, then we might have telepathic abilities ....in a million years or three.

 

I wonder if you realize that the entire human race has only existed for roughly 200,000 years, and here you are proposing a change in 3 million. Do you realize that your timeline is 15x longer than the entire human species has been in existence? Do you care?

[insane_alien]

iNow, well, it is an unprecedented change in biology. we have no idea what sort of mutation it would take. so the timescale to pick up that particular trait may indeed be larger than the time our species has been around.