Conservatives Enraged that the POTUS Wants to Encourage School Children to Try Harder

[Pangloss]

Posts 20 & 21 merged in from another thread.

[iNow]

You could have tried to understand why some conservatives are against this program. But that would have been too much work and would have against your political bias.

I did try to understand why the reaction to this has been so fierce. I searched and searched, and could not find why this was such a big deal. The President of the United States wants to encourage school chidren to work hard, stay in school, and see the importance of education.

 

The speech the POTUS is going to use directly reinforces this claim. It does not in any way, shape, or form have a political bent, it does not try to drum up support for healthcare, and it does not have any socialist or marxist or nazi agenda. However, all I heard from conservatives was how Obama is trying to indoctrinate kids with his socialist agenda, how he's equivalent to Kim Jong-Il, and how he's some sort of Maoist, and how they're going to yank their children out of the classroom... All for trying to encourage children to focus on their education.

 

Yet, DH... Here you are... suggesting that I "didn't bother trying to understand their concerns," and that I was simply being lazy and was concerned about reading views contradictory to my "political bias?"

 

You obviously haven't spent much time reading my posts in the Politics section. I pride myself on being open to a good argument, and also on my willingness to review subjects from the viewpoints of others. So, not only was this response above rather personal, it was also completely wrong and wholly inaccurate.

 

 

 

Okay, now... Let's start here, then:

 

They are enraged by the teaching points that the DOE is sending out in advance of the speech, not the speech itself.

This is the first I've heard about this. Can you please share why these talking points are so problematic? What do they contain that has so many people so worked up? Also, are teachers and school administrators being forced to use them, or are they merely guidelines and suggestions? Finally, how is what Obama is doing ANY different than what George Herbert Walker Bush and Ronald Wilson Reagan did when they were president?

 

 

I think that is a good place to start, and if you're willing to expand on your position I feel we can find a way to see one anothers view points more clearly and move forward on a common path.

 

Thanks.

[ydoaPs]

It does not in any way, shape, or form have a political bent, it does not try to drum up support for healthcare, and it does not have any socialist or marxist or nazi agenda.

It supports public school.

 

However, all I heard from conservatives was how Obama is trying to indoctrinate kids with his socialist agenda

He is.

[iNow]

For purposes of this discussion, I think it's important to note that the "socialism" being lamented in this context has nothing to do with public schools.

 

While I understand that public schools (and roadways, and water treatment plants, and ad infinitum) are socialistic parts of our society, and how encouraging students to stay in school and work hard can be peripherally considered socialistic since public schools are themselves socialistic, I'm rather confident this is not the "type" of socialism which has everyone worked up since public schools have existed for quite a long time before Obama took office.

 

I did, however, see the tongue out smilie in your post, so note that this was more of a general comment to the reader, and not really directed at you.

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In the meantime, get it straight from the horses mouth. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan had the full half hour on Face the Nation with Bob Scheiffer this morning.

 

Here is the relevant bit:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5291081n

[Saryctos]

blah replying to a post on page 1 forgetting there's 2 pages >_<

[bascule]

[JohnB]

Just the view from the outside.

 

It does sometimes appear that there is a "Cult of Personality" around Obama. It was brought up here before the election and I saw it myself in some vids. The Republicans chanted "USA, USA" while the Democrats chanted "Obama, Obama."

 

From the outside this is a bit of a worry. It appeared that many in the US viewed Obama as some sort of saviour who would "unite the country, yada, yada yada." It wasn't about policies, it was about the man.

 

I can see where the opponents are coming from. I think they're wrong, but I can see their point. The point has been made before, it's not about the speech, but the other things that go with it.

 

However the "anti" argument is pretty much a "slippery slope" one.

 

"How can I help the President achieve his goals in education" could become "How can I help the President achieve his goals in....". It logically follows that one way to help is to report those who dissent or to actively obstruct them.

 

The messages of "Stay in school", "Appreciate America is a Great Nation", "Be clean in your habits, body and mind" and "Help the Leader achieve his goals" are all worthy messages. The Scouts say similar things, unfortunately so did the Hitler Youth.

 

As I said, it's more a slippery slope argument than anything else, and one that I think is false.

 

That being said, I do think the message should be "How can I help make America a better nation?" rather than "How can I help the President?"

 

I don't see evidence of the personality thing in these forums, however the "Republicans are Evil" does wear a bit thin after a while. (And makes our members look incredibly one eyed.)

 

iNow, I appreciate your reasoning for the Thread Title and sympathise with it, however can you see that by being deliberately provocative it doesn't invite reasoned debate? The title itself can appear as an attack and invites active response if anything, but not debate.

 

Similarly, all jokes that provoke a response are funny, but not all things that provoke a response are jokes. As an Australian "Comedy" team discovered after this disaster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS36ZuCW-7c

 

As to why some people might be concerned;

Can you please share why these talking points are so problematic?

 

From the link you posted earlier;

http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/academic/bts.html

 

http://www.ed.gov/teachers/how/lessons/7-12.pdf

Teachers may post in large print around the classroom notable quotes excerpted from President Obama’s speeches on education.

 

Would there not have been howls of anger if it were suggested that excerpts from George W. Bushs speeches should be posted in large print around the classroom 4 years ago?

[CaptainPanic]

That struck me as daft because Presidents often speak to children in schools (Bush certainly did). So I don't really understand the objection and I'm looking around for more on it.

Yeah, but while Obama is the one giving the lesson, Bush was actually at school to learn to count to 10. You can't compare the two.

 

I can imagine that if you're an unemployed dropout yourself that you don't want a socialist president that encourages your kid to go to school [/sarcasm]

 

Government mandated and sponsored education is already socialist, but if course that point is lost on these people. They don't actually know what socialism is, they just know it's bad.

Then don't tell them that a lot of their (European) allies that help keep their white American ass safe are socialist countries.

 

The thing I think that bothers me most about this is that these people belong to a group that paint themselves as "real Americans" and wave the flag every chance they get. And they want to show disrespect to the president; I have a hard time reconciling that. It doesn't matter who the individual is — you show respect to the office. I had always though that the left had a harder time with that concept (there's a large overlap with military hierarchy in this concept, and liberals don't join the military, right?) Are there instances of liberals pulling their kids out of schools when Bush dropped in to read a book to them?

This attitude is known as "American arrogance": wave the flag, and do whatever you want. "Whoever isn't with me is against me". (A statement that apparently can be reversed too: "if I didn't vote for the president, he must be against me").

 

It's been the standard American foreign policy for 8 years while Bush was in power. The boss showed how it's done - it's not surprising that some people copied the attitude.

 

So if these people complain about being called un-American backwards-ass hypocritical country farts, the can kiss my posterior, because they've already sent the message that I don't have to respect their position, or them.

When people stop communicating... the next step usually is... ?

[swansont]

Then don't tell them that a lot of their (European) allies that help keep their white American ass safe are socialist countries.

 

This attitude is known as "American arrogance": wave the flag, and do whatever you want. "Whoever isn't with me is against me". (A statement that apparently can be reversed too: "if I didn't vote for the president, he must be against me").

 

It's been the standard American foreign policy for 8 years while Bush was in power. The boss showed how it's done - it's not surprising that some people copied the attitude.

 

 

If they could find them on a map, I think they'd not be too surprised to learn that they were more socialist than the US. They're still "furriners," so the American arrogance is all part of that. And it's been going on for a lot longer than 8 years, I think.

 

 

When people stop communicating... the next step usually is... ?

 

The problem is on both sides; I think this is just another example of "I hate you and what you stand for, so I'll just make stuff up to justify that hatred"

[iNow]

iNow, I appreciate your reasoning for the Thread Title and sympathise with it, however can you see that by being deliberately provocative it doesn't invite reasoned debate? The title itself can appear as an attack and invites active response if anything, but not debate.

Well, in the interest of transparency, part of my hope is to marginalize such nonsense. These attacks are hollow, the wording about helping the president was written BY teachers FOR teachers (NOT by the administration), and it has since been changed, and (as swansont alluded to) I'm growing increasingly frustrated at how people are just making things up to justify their preexisting hatreds.

 

It really has gotten to the point in our country, John, where the ignorance is reinforced and impenetrable by logic and reason. You can't debate with that, and while I always appreciate another viewpoint and a quality argument which differs from mine, I sense that our only hope is to collectively marginalize this childish response (regardless of our ideology or partisan leanings) and return ourselves to a country which has the ability to have an intellectual dialog. Frankly, I am simply disappointed with my fellow countrymen.

 

I mean... really... Our president wants to encourage kids to stay in school, and people get all apoplectic? We need to just laugh in their face. Valid concerns should be addressed, but my contention is that most of these concerns right now are without merit, and CERTAINLY do not warrant the intensity of the rage we are seeing from those who hold them.

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So, the speech is now available online. And, surprise... It seems the reaction from (some of the more prominent, popular, and representative) conservatives was a bit overblown and out of line.

 

 

http://www.whitehouse.gov/MediaResources/PreparedSchoolRemarks/

 

 

As I mentioned above, one of my biggest hopes is that these insane reactions get people to wake up to the fact that there is nothing we can get done in this country if people first start yelling and shooting (reference to gun culture, not that any actual shootings have taken place... yet) instead of expressing valid concerns in an mature and intelligent manner.

 

Most of my colleagues at work are very conservative, so I recognize that they bring a lot to the table when they argue crisp points and articulate well formed positions. They are sane, and even they are finally getting tired of the zombies being pushed out to the masses by the likes of Glenn Beck.

 

My hope is that guys like my friends at work... the real conservatives step up and denounce these ignorant arguments, too. When I say I want to marginalize these people, it's not because they have ideas counter to my own, but because of the actions and unfocused rage/fury they spout at nearly every turn. That needs to stop, and we need to shun such responses collectively.

 

Share your ideas, but keep the ignorant nondescript (and often off-point) yelling to yourself.

 

 

Anyway... the speech is available. It's pretty much a "rah rah, study hard!" like we all knew it would be. Go ahead and read it, or, it will be up on YouTube tomorrow.

 

In the meantime, I'm going to keep calling these loons for what they are, and I hope that my conservative friends will stand by my side and do the same.

Edited September 8, 2009 by iNow
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[bascule]

So like, all this hubbub is over a webcast. Kinda blows my mind.

[Sisyphus]

I know people who hated Bush to the point of being irrational, and people who hate Obama in the same way. That isn't what's weird. What's weird is parents refusing to let their children hear the President speak. And not even just on a particular subject - he literally can't say anything, even "stay in school, kids." That isn't just an echo chamber, that's refusing to participate in the same reality. And I don't think that's a symmetrical thing, either, I think it's a characteristic of social conservatism. The "I wouldn't let my neighbor speak to my kid alone" quote kind of freaks me out. What kind of adults are these ultra-sheltered kids going to be?

[ydoaPs]

The speech is being broadcast live right now on facebook: http://apps.facebook.com/whitehouselive/

[insane_alien]

you know, they way i heard some people go on about this you'd expect him to be up there with a backdrop of a spinning spiral, swinging a watch infront of him and going 'your feeling sleeeeeepyyyyy.... very very sleeeepyyy...'

[ydoaPs]

I think he messed up at the end. He said "God Bless." Now the right-wing conservitards are going to be all out trying to get Obama impeached for violation of the Separation of Church and State!

 

[Dudde]

I think he messed up at the end. He said "God Bless." Now the right-wing conservitards are going to be all out trying to get Obama impeached for violation of the Separation of Church and State!

 

 

That would be the most hipocritical thing ever. I kind of agree though, lately it seems as though our president is almost deliberately pushing the conservative side, it's kinda funny, but wearing thing pretty quick

[iNow]

OMFG!!! Obama is indoctrinating children with his political ideology! The horror! Oh, the humanity!

 

 

Errmmm... I mean, here's the actual speech. Pretty vanilla if you ask me.

 

 

 

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Btw, Sisyphus... Interesting comment about how are these children going to grow up if their conservative parents shelter them from relatively mundane things like hearing the president speak. It's a pretty scary thought, and I worry about their critical thinking skills.

[insane_alien]

i'd also worry about how they'll react to people with different views than them. usually you learn how to deal with it pretty early on in life but if your that sheltered your parents won't let you watch a speech encouraging you to do well then chances are your not going to have developed the ability to handle it like a human.

[Saryctos]

i'd also worry about how they'll react to people with different views than them. usually you learn how to deal with it pretty early on in life but if your that sheltered your parents won't let you watch a speech encouraging you to do well then chances are your not going to have developed the ability to handle it like a human.

 

They'll do it the way it's been done for years, College.

[bascule]

I'm at an airport right now watching the Fox News coverage of Obama's speech.

 

It goes a little bit like this:

 

"Obama spoke to school kids today. [Total non-sequitur] Obama isn't honoring school vouchers!"

 

"Obama spoke to school kids today. [Total non-sequitur] Obama isn't cracking down hard enough on child rapists!"

 

"Obama spoke to school kids today, and some conservative parents are opposed. Let's give airtime to one of these wingnuts!" [...] "Since they're public schools, school kids could be FORCED to listen to this sort of thing! (why is it bad?) What the school decides overrides the parent! (uhh, any evidence this is happening? Parents can't request their kids not hear Obama?)"

 

This is the first time in recent history that casually taking in Fox News really made my blood boil.

[Pangloss]

A bit of an interlude here, but since it's on the same subject I thought you guys might find this amusing. I just copied and pasted this text below from the official White House Facebook page:

 

Watch the President's Full Speech to America's Student's

[CaptainPanic]

A bit of an interlude here, but since it's on the same subject I thought you guys might find this amusing. I just copied and pasted this text below from the official White House Facebook page:

 

Watch the President's Full Speech to America's Student's

 

Seams like the auther of teh tekst shoed also take Obama's message's at haert: stai in skool end work hart.

 

Then again, I guess that Obama didn't replace the entire staff last January. Could be a remnant of the Bush era. (After all, you don't want a simple webmaster who's smarter than the president, right?)

[Mr Skeptic]

Eh, heard on the radio yesterday how a kid asked Obama what goals he set for himself in school and he said he goofed off until college...

[iNow]

Yeah. What you've just shared is a misquote/misinterpretation. He said he made mistakes, too, but they helped him learn and become stronger.

[iNow]

This video is from 8 seniors at a high school in Washington, DC, and was taped after the president's speech. I thought it was pretty well done, and might serve as a nice bookend to this otherwise frustrating/disappointing topic.

 

 

 

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