Li, KCl

[budullewraagh]

first, can anybody tell me where i can obtain KCl without a perscription?

 

secondly, can anybody here tell me how much lithium i could obtain from one lithium battery?

 

thirdly, can anybody tell me how i could do the replacement reaction that follows?

KCl+Li->K + LiCl

[MulderMan]

KCl = potassium chloride = Lo Salt. you can buy Lo Salt in most supermarkets and healthfood stores as an alternative to sodium chloride. unless you meant the oxidising agent potassium chlorate KClO3? i think you could only get it on perscription if you had a potassium deficiancy and it comes in tablet form but im sure its Lo Salt (not sure what the american trade name is - maybe K-Salt or summet?)

[wolfson]

For KClO3 look at:

 

http://www.fryingcolors.com/kclo3.html

[budullewraagh]

actually i am not looking for KClO3. i thought i had heard of something containing KCl and you refreshed my memory. thanks for your help, all.

 

so, can anybody answer my latter questions? i'll restate:

 

can anybody here tell me how much lithium i could obtain from one lithium battery?

 

can anybody tell me how i could do the replacement reaction that follows?

KCl+Li->K + LiCl

[YT2095]

KCl can be bought at a healthfood shop as a table salt replacement, the Lo-Salt mentioned above is another good source but it`s only abot 66% KCl.

KClO3 is toxic, you`ll not be able to get that without the correct liscence.

Lithium will not displace potassium, as K is alot more electro positive than Li.

 

as for you`r Li source, it all depends on the battery type, a 2016 will have less than a 2032 and both will have less that the AA type, however, they`re VERY expensive! and must be taken appart while still charged, do this in an open ventilated area, as it contains Ether (Highly flammable!).

[budullewraagh]

thanks, yt. i'll look for that KCl source.

 

you said that lithium will not displace potassium. lithium is the most active element in existence. i just read a (nonfiction) book which states that some kid purified ThO2 (from lantern mantles) with some Li he obtained from shoplifted Li batteries. the reaction was:

ThO2+Li -> LiO2+Th

before doing this to his precious source of Th, he tried this type of experiment on KNO3.

KNO3+Li ->LiNO3+K

 

i also know that lithium replaces bromiddes, chlorides, nitrates and dioxides among other anions. can you help me out with a procedure?

[YT2095]

ok, for a start, some of that data you have is false

Lithium, although reactive, is less reactive than Sodium, Potassium and any of the other group one metals, it`s the least reactive. BUT having said that, it`s certainly more reactive than Thorium, and will quite easily displace that

although it won`t do it as an Oxide, it will have to be LiOH as a wet reaction is needed, and any alkali Oxide become a hydroxide on contact with water. if he tried a Thermite reaction (and I doubt it) then he could use Li metal and the ThO2, leaving liquid molten Thorium metal and Li oxide as a dust.

as for lithium replacing halogens, what do you mean?

[budullewraagh]

eh, sorry to say this but first, here's the activity series according to new york state. i have many more sources also:

lithium

potassium

strontium

calcium

sodium

magnesium

aluminum

zinc

chromium

iron

cadmium

cobalt

nickel

tin

lead

hydrogen

antimony

arsenic

bismuth

copper

mercury

silver

paladium

platinum

gold

 

 

sources:

http://www.jesuitnola.com/upload/clark/Refs/solu_act.htm

http://www.chem.vt.edu/RVGS/ACT/notes/activity_series.html

new york state regents exam reference tables

 

i'm sorry to sound negative; please forgive me if i do, but i am positive that lithium is in fact the most active metal in existence. there are other metals that have lower ionization energies, less electronegativity, and have generally more metallic properties than lithium but lithium still is the most active metal due to its small atomic radius.

 

and hey, evidence backs me up; K from KNO3 is replaced by Li. again, the reaction is:

Li+KNO3->K+LiNO3

the kid did the water test and found that the metal he produced reacted with H2O by producing a purplish smoke and a more vigorous reaction than Li would with H2O.

 

i know that lithium doesn't replace halogens. lithium replaces metals.

example:

KCl+Li->K+LiCl

works the same as the reaction stated above except the anion is different. still works though

[YT2095]

well unless I have my Periodic table upside down, I have to contest your sources most adamantly, they are wrong.

 

you partly gave the correct answer when you stated "metal due to its small atomic radius."

 

it`s by virtue of it`s small atomic radius that the electrons are closer to the nucleus and are therefore harder to remove, making it the least reactive

[budullewraagh]

first, how do you explain the reaction that took place as stated above?

second, have you ever seen an activity series?

third, i will find more sources: (note: i will post any sources i find; not just the ones that have Li on top)

http://www.unr.edu/sb204/geology/mas.html

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/redox/faq/activity-series.shtml

http://www2.austincc.edu/lgregory/Activity.htm

http://www.edu.pe.ca/kish/Grassroots/chem/metalAct.htm

http://www.clickandlearn.org/activity_series.htm

 

i could keep listing sources but i think this is enough. again, in all my studies i have never seen anything stating that lithium is less active than K

 

really, search for "metal activity series" online and you will only find that lithium is at the top

[YT2095]

I sincerely hope you`re not confusing reactivity with Electrode potential?

[budullewraagh]

check the links i provided. they all state the "activity series" of metals

[YT2095]

there`s no need to, putting Gold AFTER Platinum says it all )

 

edit: have a look at the Reactivity and Reactions list in order of reactivity here: http://www.wpbschoolhouse.btinternet.co.uk/page03/Reactivity.htm

[budullewraagh]

?

[budullewraagh]

alright, since i can't seem to convince you here's my proposal:

if you help me out with a procedure for this experiment, i'll do it. let me make mistakes. i'll show you pictures of the reactions when i'm done

[YT2095]

not a problem, I WAS only trying to help you anyway

 

"Reactivity series of metals : We have seen that some metals are more reactive than the others. In the chapter on Classification of Elements we have seen that the reactivity of elements decreases as we go from the left to right in the periodic table. Alkali metals from group 1 A such as Na, K, Cs are most reactive. Alkaline earth metals from group 2 A such as Mg, Ca are reactive but are less reactive than the alkali metals.

 

In the alkali group, as we go down the group we have elements Lithium (Li), Sodium (Na), Potassium (K), Rubidium (Rb), Cesium (Cs) and Francium (Fr). They have all only one electron in their outermost shells. All the elements show metallic properties and have valence +1. They give up electron easily. Reactivity or the ease with which these elements give off their electrons increases with the size of the atoms. The size of the atom increases from Li to Fr. The outermost electron is less loosely bound in Fr than in Li, as in Fr the distance between the last electron and the positive nucleus is large; this makes the attractive force binding or holding the electron to be less. Thus K will give up electron more easily than Na. This makes K more reactive than Na."

 

taken from: http://home.att.net/~cat6a/metals-IV.htm

 

so we`ll start from this basis, Lithium will NOT displace Potassium ever.

and so your mix of LiOH and KNO3 will remain just that, a mix of the 2 (I know because I use that mix myself, in stars and gerbs for fireworks)

 

Lithium will displace Thorium though, but to get the metalic Thorium, a displacement reaction isn`t the way I`de go. make Thorium Nitrate and plate it off on a carbon electrode, you`ll get 100% pure Thorium, and some of your nitric acid back

[budullewraagh]

ok, just to get this straight i'm not trying to make thorium metal. thanks anyway.

 

so, pretending that lithium replaces potassium, would this work?

-dissolve KCl in H2O

-add lithium metal to solution

-recover metal evolved

[YT2095]

nope, there would be no metal created, you`de just have a mix of KCl and LiOH

[budullewraagh]

so, pretending that lithium replaces potassium, would this work?

^those probably are the most important words of my post

[YT2095]

I`m sorry, but I will only state facts, were I to start "pretending" I may as well say it`ll create a steady stream of faster than light UFOs LOL

 

and anyway, if we ignore all displacements, ANY metal of group 1 will instantly react with water to make the coresponding hydroxide, so even if you did get Potassium by trying to displace it with Rubidium or Caesium, it wouldn`t last above pico seconds before becoming KOH

[budullewraagh]

if i did this in a concentrated acid would i get a hydride?

[budullewraagh]

(this acid is conc HCl btw)

[YT2095]

Holy Crap man!

 

if you did that with ANY conc acid, you`de be needing a Plastic Surgeon to try make you look something like human again (based on the assumption you survived the blast).

 

do not even CONSIDER! attempting this, any group 1 metal in acid will explode! spattering acid everywhere as well

[budullewraagh]

oh, right. sorry, it's early.

still, pretending the replacement would work, do you think this would work dry?

[YT2095]

do I think what would work dry?

 

the KCl and Li?

Nope, you`de just end up with KCl crystals breaking with the heat and going pop, and pool of molten Lithium that will contain Carbonates due to the flame CO2 and oxides as it reacts with air, as well as short lived Lithium Nitride.

 

thats what would happen