mzatanoskas Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Synthosis, Here's a famous scientist and a christian who talks about these issues: Dr Francis Collins There are a fair few videos of him on youtube including this short . He has a website: biologos.org And a best-selling book: The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief
tar Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) Syntho-sis, I agree with both A Tripolation and iNow on this. How? You ask. Because the God of the bible, taken literally is false, and the God of the bible taken figuratively is true. I was raised Protestant and am now an atheist, and someday I will die. The components that make me TAR were here before I was born, I experience reality as TAR and when I die, I will be TAR no more, but reality will remember me, and the components that make me up will still be around. Thus my connection to the universe is very factual, very real and one can, without any fear of reprisal, from either a believer or non-believer, asert that they are in and of the universe, are made from it, are enjoying consciousness of it, and in this way, separated from it, at the moment, and will return to it. iNow suggests to not fret over the situation, enjoy life. I totally agree, and would add, "and make it possible for others to enjoy life, now and after you die." A Tripolation knows the love of Jesus Christ, and I too have felt the love of Jesus. I have since defined what it is I am feeling, a bit differently, but without my Christian upbringing, might not have known the feeling in the first place. Reason to believe us all, is that we are all saying to accept what you know is true, and enjoy it. Where I think your confusion comes from is that unbelievers insist you not believe in order to be right, and believers insist you believe in order to be right. Where everybody gets it wrong, is believing their way is the only way. Where everybody gets it right is believing in the universe. Regards, TAR Edited October 22, 2009 by tar
iNow Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 A Tripolation knows the love of Jesus Christ, and I too have felt the love of Jesus. Actually, he's a deist, not a Christian... but I'm just being pedantic.
A Tripolation Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) ACTUALLY, I'm a deist that believes in Jesus Christ...but I'm just being pedantic. And yes, those two beliefs are compatible. And if they're not, well I MADE them compatible. Edited October 22, 2009 by A Tripolation -1
dr.syntax Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) ACTUALLY, I'm a deist that believes in Jesus Christ...but I'm just being pedantic. And yes, those two beliefs are compatible. And if they're not, well I MADE them compatible. REPLY: I am proud of you. You stand up for what you believe in. You are not intimidated by anyone`s rep points. That iNow is a real prick. The fact that his rep count is so high really makes me wonder about just what COUNTS in this forum. I am once again being threatened with dismissal from this forum thanks to him and his buddies. ...Dr.Syntax Edited October 22, 2009 by dr.syntax 1
A Tripolation Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Well, I sincerely appreciate your support dr. syntax, but I most likely did leave the impression that I was a deist in some PMs I sent him. My mistake for being vague. And I consider myself to share many beliefs with deists. Again, thank you.
dr.syntax Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) Well, I sincerely appreciate your support dr. syntax, but I most likely did leave the impression that I was a deist in some PMs I sent him. My mistake for being vague. And I consider myself to share many beliefs with deists. Again, thank you. REPLY: Thomas Paine was a Deist. In ny opinion his finest work was THE AGE OF REASON . Written at a time when speaking your mind was very dangerous.It still is as you probably know, but it was much worse where and when Thomas Paine wrote that book. ...Dr.Syntax Edited October 22, 2009 by dr.syntax
iNow Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 REPLY: I am proud of you. You stand up for what you believe in. You are not intimidated by anyone`s rep points. That iNow is a real prick. The fact that his rep count is so high really makes me wonder about just what COUNTS in this forum. I am once again being threatened with dismissal from this forum thanks to him and his buddies. ...Dr.Syntax Your contributions to this site are unparalleled, Dr.Syntax. We're really lucky you're here. FWIW, I consider A Tripolation to be a friend, so your read of this situation is rather poor and inaccurate. I simply made a mistake and was IN NO WAY attacking him. Maybe you should go get more of that wonderful primal therapy you're always talking about so you can start behaving more like a normal human being. Perhaps you haven't figured this out yet, but rep is earned. Obviously, many of my contributions here are valued. I'm sorry if that makes you feel insecure.
tar Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) Dr. Syntax, iNow's reputation is earned. He believes in the truth, and is appreciated for it, and the way he goes about finding it and sharing it. This forum is a lot deeper and a lot more valuable than you are giving it credit for. Think about it. What is more valuable to TAR, to think I know the truth, or to find the truth that everybody can share. Subjectively we are alone. Through scientific method we can arrive at objective facts that we can share, and in the sharing of objective facts, transcend our subjectivity. I don't know what I just said, or why I said it, but I meant it. Regards, TAR Edited October 22, 2009 by tar
dr.syntax Posted October 22, 2009 Posted October 22, 2009 Your contributions to this site are unparalleled, Dr.Syntax. We're really lucky you're here. FWIW, I consider A Tripolation to be a friend, so your read of this situation is rather poor and inaccurate. I simply made a mistake and was IN NO WAY attacking him. Maybe you should go get more of that wonderful primal therapy you're always talking about so you can start behaving more like a normal human being. Perhaps you haven't figured this out yet, but rep is earned. Obviously, many of my contributions here are valued. I'm sorry if that makes you feel insecure. REPLY: Being a friend of A Tripolation would mean a good bit to me. Never the less your unceasing desire to ridicule me has gone on since I joined this forum. Also, nothing you or anyone else has said regarding PRIMAL THERAPY has ever been based on any proof whatsoever. All, any of you have ever done is provide links to websites devoted to destroying his reputation written by people who manage to remain anonymous at many of those sites. You as well as others have pointed out you can always find websites that promote your argument, and yet when you do this with me, it is accepted as proof and I am somehow PROVEN TO BE WRONG. No, these websites prove nothing. And I don`t care who said what. That is not proof,it is opinion. ...Dr.Syntax
Syntho-sis Posted October 22, 2009 Author Posted October 22, 2009 Synthosis, Here's a famous scientist and a christian who talks about these issues: Dr Francis Collins There are a fair few videos of him on youtube including this short . He has a website: biologos.org And a best-selling book: The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief I appreciate all of your viewpoints, the more knowledge I can garner about this issue, the more informed decisions I can make about my own philosophies. 1
Severian Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 If a quantum physicist tells me something about quantum physics that disagrees with my beliefs, my beliefs are probably wrong. Does it have to be something true?
padren Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 Religion I think, is really the single largest thought experiment that people routinely engage in: Asking "What if?" to big questions, and have over time felt out a great many ways of answering that question. The "What if" tends to be tied to finding possible answers to the big questions of why is there a universe, how did we come to exist, why we are conscious and such. The single largest factor, is there are a great many explanations that people can use to answer that "What if" with. In the end though, they all fit the format of "thought experiment" because they are explanations for phenomena (the existence of the universe, etc) without ever being able to be confirmed by phenomena they exist to confirm. Now, that doesn't mean any specific religion is wrong, just that it is unconfirmable by it's very nature. Pretty much all religions seem to speak of a time when Gods walked the Earth or at least interacted directly with people, of which we have the stories from those times passed down from person to person. To anyone in contemporary times, those stories are explanations but without having been there they cannot be confirmed. So what does that mean to someone like me? I consider myself agnostic because I think it is impossible to know if there is a God - any being that is 'almost a god' in power could easily rearrange our brains and make us think it created the universe regardless of whether it did. It is simply a question that will always be beyond our senses to be able to answer in an honest way. That being said, I live my life largely as a functional atheist because, unless I experience the presence of [a] God, then for all intensive purposes God is absent from the world I live in - God is functionally a non-factor. Either He exists and does not let Himself be revealed, or He doesn't and there is nothing to reveal. Either way - the end result is the same - there is no way to functionally factor God as an element in day to day life with any consistency. If you go looking for God's influence you can find patterns - just as many patterns as exist that lead people live their lives based on Numerology, Astrology and countless other similar pattern theories. So I guess, where I am going with this with regards to the OP is if you find yourself in a heavily religious environment try to avoid proof/disproof and treat the "literalism" as a thought experiment, and find what underlying value can be taken from it. Whether you believe God created the world in 6 days, and on the 7th day he rested, and as such commanded all his children to rest on the 7th day is irrelevant - the question is do you find value in that teaching? I personally find it helpful to have one day a week I take off, take time to pause and enjoy the world around me and be thankful for it. Whether that observation came about through Biblical writings or not is irrelevant - the writings are untestable anyway. Likewise, there are decent philosophy on all manner of things. It won't help you when someone is trash talking evolution, but if when you feel disconcerted, try to think of the values you do value that have come from your religion and where you share commonality in appreciating those values with the rest of the community. But the important thing is to investigate those teachings and see what you value from them. When you do that, the values you choose to take from them are truly yours and how you came to them is far less important, and regardless of what you feel in the future about where they came from will not make them less valuable to you. 1
dr.syntax Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 Does it have to be something true? REPLY: Just because someone is a quantum physicist does not make them right about everything. do they not often debate amongst themselves what is true or not true about some aspect of the work they do ? Also, there is much about being alive and life itself which leads me to conclude that in some ways some,NOT ALL, think in such abrstract ways that they lose track of much of what is important about life. Many of them are regular guys who are also physicists. I admire many of them. Richard Feynman and only very recently Albert Einstein are among those I admire. ...Dr.Syntax
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