dr.syntax Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) This is a new and original concept AS FAR I KNOW. This concept is that if water could be changed from a liquid to a solid fast enough that the ratio of hydrogen bonds existing in this " SUPER-QUICK FROZEN ICE" would be the same as that of water close to it`s freezing point. There would be no permanent hydrogen bonds as exists in normal ice. The proof that this prior to now, unconcieved of form of ice was formed would be that it would sink in water unlike normal ice that floats in water.The reason it would sink is that it would have the same ratio of hydrogen bonds as water close to it`s freezing temperature and no more permanent hydrogen bonds than the number of hydrogen bonds that exist in lquid water at any given time. Permanent hydrogen bonds would exist in the same ratio of hydrogen bonds that exist in water close to freezing temperature. It would sink in water because it would be colder and denser . As far as I know this concept is a new one and original to me: Dr.Syntax. I time and dated this earlier and will do so now at 3:17 AM October 23,2009. ...Dr.Syntax Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedThis is a new and original concept AS FAR I KNOW. This concept is that if water could be changed from a liquid to a solid fast enough that the ratio of hydrogen bonds existing in this " SUPER-QUICK FROZEN ICE" would be the same as that of water close to it`s freezing point. There would be no permanent hydrogen bonds as exists in normal ice. The proof that this prior to now, unconcieved of form of ice was formed would be that it would sink in water unlike normal ice that floats in water.The reason it would sink is that it would have the same ratio of hydrogen bonds as water close to it`s freezing temperature and no more permanent hydrogen bonds than the number of hydrogen bonds that exist in lquid water at any given time. Permanent hydrogen bonds would exist in the same ratio of hydrogen bonds that exist in water close to freezing temperature. It would sink in water because it would be colder and denser . As far as I know this concept is a new one and original to me: Dr.Syntax. I time and dated this earlier and will do so now at 3:17 AM October 23,2009. ...Dr.Syntax REPLY: The way to create SUPER-QUICK FREEZED ICE would be to bring a quanity of water to the coldest temperature you can WITHOUT FREEZING IT and then pour it into liquid helium. Liquid nitrogen might work also. I time and date this statement at 3:40 AM EST October 23, 2009 . ...Dr.Syntax Edited October 23, 2009 by dr.syntax Consecutive posts merged.
swansont Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WaterPhaseDiagram.png Which form of ice are you forming?
randomc Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 But if its not forming extra hydrogen bonds during the phase change where is the excess energy going? wouldn't it just form lots of very small bits of ice rather than a single block?
Jamespenk Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 Does it not just dissapate in its surrounding environment?
dr.syntax Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WaterPhaseDiagram.png Which form of ice are you forming? REPLY: A form never conceived of previously AS FAR AS I KNOW. This ice would have the same ratio of hydrogen bonds as liquid water at very close to the freezing point of water,but which is still a liquid. It seems to me by pouring a small amount of such water into liquid helium it might freeze so rapidly that the ratio of hydrogen bonds would not change significantly though the bonds would remain permanent as long as this super-fast frozen ice was kept cold enough to remain a solid. In normal ice pretty much all of the hydrogens bond to an oxygen and form the space filling structures that makes normal ice lighter than liquid water. I am aware of some other forms of ice that are heavier than water but they are entirely different structures requiring high pressures and special conditions to exist. This super-fast frozen ice would not require special conditions once created. If you want to kick it over to speculations I will see no fault in that. The reason I posted it where I did was that I had been developing these thoughts and posting them in the thread about putting a person in liquid nitrogen and realized I had a new concept developed and posted which could allow some quick thinker to post on it as his idea. I wanted my concept time and date stamped. It may turn out others had aleady thought of it. I`ve been googling it and found none yet.Also it may not be possible to do. That is it. ...Dr.Syntax Edited October 23, 2009 by dr.syntax
randomc Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 Does it not just dissapate in its surrounding environment? in that case there wouldn't BE a phase change as far as i understand it. Which isn't well at all hence the question.
dr.syntax Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) in that case there wouldn't BE a phase change as far as i understand it. Which isn't well at all hence the question. repy: As long as it remains frozen, a solid, it`s molecular structure,ARRANGEMENT, would not change. ...DS Edited October 23, 2009 by dr.syntax
randomc Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 repy: As long as it remains frozen, a solid, it`s molecular structure,ARRANGEMENT, would not change. ...DS I'm sorry i really don't get it. I thought that in the absence of some external force the only way water can become ice is by converting its latent heat into hydrogen bonds? So if there is no external force and its not making hydrogen bonds how can it become a solid in the first place?
dr.syntax Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 But if its not forming extra hydrogen bonds during the phase change where is the excess energy going? wouldn't it just form lots of very small bits of ice rather than a single block? Why would there be excess energy to account for ? The energy change involved would be relatively small to begin with. The vast difference in the temperature of liquid helium and water very close to it`s freezing point is not much. The small energy exchange involved would go to the liquid helium. The melting point of helium is -272.60 C water is 0 C . ...DS Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedI'm sorry i really don't get it. I thought that in the absence of some external force the only way water can become ice is by converting its latent heat into hydrogen bonds? So if there is no external force and its not making hydrogen bonds how can it become a solid in the first place? REPLY: IF THAT IS TRUE UNDER THESE EXTREME CONDITIONS THEN WHAT I proposed IS NOT POSSIBLE . I don`t know, you may very well be right. But would`nt the vast temperature difference be the necessary external force ? Under extreme conditions the usual rules do not always apply. I am not saying you are wrong, only that I don`t know. ...DS
randomc Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 well its interesting, but as this is the physics section i should probably stop speculating and leave it to somebody else to answer.
swansont Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 well its interesting, but as this is the physics section i should probably stop speculating and leave it to somebody else to answer. It's now in the Speculations forum, seeing as this form of ice has admittedly never been observed to exist.
dr.syntax Posted October 24, 2009 Author Posted October 24, 2009 It's now in the Speculations forum, seeing as this form of ice has admittedly never been observed to exist. This form of ice does exist. It is called: SOLID STATE WATER. Also, every conclusion I stated was correct, including the essence of how I proposed such , what I now know is called Solid State Water, could be produced. To view the wikipedia article dealing with all this, go to : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice#phases . It is also called : AMORPHOUS ICE. There is a lot there in article about different forms of ice and SOLID STATE WATER. This article confirms every thing I proposed, even the way to creat it. Though the method described does not require liquid helium, a substantially colder substrate is used to expose water vapor to. The principal being the same: that if water can be formed into a solid rapidly enough the hydogen bond ratio remains the same as liquid water and hence its name : SOLID STATE WATER. Maybe with a name change such as: "All About SOLID STATE WATER"this thread could be placed back in the physics forum. Evidently most members here in this forum are unaware of all this. ...Dr.Syntax
toastywombel Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 It's now in the Speculations forum, seeing as this form of ice has admittedly never been observed to exist. Thats not true, and syntax has a point. This is from wikipedia Very-high-density amorphous ice Very-high-density amorphous ice (VHDA), was discovered in 1996 by Mishima who observed that HDA became denser if warmed to 160 K at pressures between 1 and 2 GPa and has a density of 1.26 g/cm³ at ambient pressure [5]. More recently, workers at the University of Innsbruck have suggested that this denser amorphous ice was a third amorphous form of water, distinct from HDA, and called it VHDA [6] -1
swansont Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 Thats not true, and syntax has a point. This is from wikipedia Very-high-density amorphous ice Very-high-density amorphous ice (VHDA), was discovered in 1996 by Mishima who observed that HDA became denser if warmed to 160 K at pressures between 1 and 2 GPa and has a density of 1.26 g/cm³ at ambient pressure [5]. More recently, workers at the University of Innsbruck have suggested that this denser amorphous ice was a third amorphous form of water, distinct from HDA, and called it VHDA [6] dr.syntax is proposing a different kind of ice, made using a different procedure. I asked which form of ice was being formed, and you can read the answer — it includes nothing you quote in your response. It should be apparent that this conjecture was not arrived at via a familiarity with the literature or the science. That's why it is speculative. Note that the OP was not a question, e.g."Does this kind of ice exist?" Inquiry vs. decree is one of the large differences between science and speculation.
Mr Skeptic Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 It would probably work more like this: erlZb8QiPkg
dr.syntax Posted October 24, 2009 Author Posted October 24, 2009 This solid state water exists and the method used to produce it is basically what I said would create it. There is a website provided by our good friends at wikipedia that discusses all this. Here is the website that goes directly to all this information. Go To: [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice#Phases ]. Diagrams and charts are provided. Also, I started a new threat regarding all this in the " Classical Physics " subforum titled : " All About Solid State Water. I wish to note that it was forum member GDG who pointed this website out to me in another thread that is related to this subject. My thanks to all who participated in this discussion. Sincerely, ...Dr.Syntax
insane_alien Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 right, rereading the OP and your latest post in the first post, you seem to be proclaiming a new and as yet previously unseen ice phase and then you link to wikipedia as proof. what you describe seems to be amorphous ice which has been known for ages and is used in electron cryomicroscopy experiments. calling it 'solid state water' means nothing other than 'ice' so i suspect you are using it as jargon meant to confuse for i can see no other purpose to it. amorphous structure in solids are well known and studied. the fact it occurs in water under extreme condition is no surprise. i also have no idea what you mean about the 'hydrogen bonding ratio' i assume you mean the degree of hydrogen bonding in the material. well, by counts of interaction this is the same in all ices. by strength of interaction, probably less in amorphous ices as they are not a stable form of ice unless kept under high pressure and cold temperatures
Klaynos Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high-density_amorphous_ice Does seem to bear some resemblance to what you were describing in your first post, but AFAIK there is no difference in terms of number or type of bonds.
dr.syntax Posted October 25, 2009 Author Posted October 25, 2009 right, rereading the OP and your latest post in the first post, you seem to be proclaiming a new and as yet previously unseen ice phase and then you link to wikipedia as proof. what you describe seems to be amorphous ice which has been known for ages and is used in electron cryomicroscopy experiments. calling it 'solid state water' means nothing other than 'ice' so i suspect you are using it as jargon meant to confuse for i can see no other purpose to it. amorphous structure in solids are well known and studied. the fact it occurs in water under extreme condition is no surprise. i also have no idea what you mean about the 'hydrogen bonding ratio' i assume you mean the degree of hydrogen bonding in the material. well, by counts of interaction this is the same in all ices. by strength of interaction, probably less in amorphous ices as they are not a stable form of ice unless kept under high pressure and cold temperatures REPLY: I don`t blame you for getting angry and frustrated with me. That article does not refer to it as solid state water. I did not come up with that word by myself as far as I recall. But it seems a good one for what I am describing. Thanks to KLYNOS [ thank you KLYNOS VERY MUCH ], I found one of the articles I read located at: [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high_density_amorphous_ice ]. The method that most closely relates to what I had previously described is called : " hyper quenched glassy water.This form of ice,solid water, is described as being very stable. ...Dr.Syntax Sincerely, ...Dr.Syntax
dr.syntax Posted October 25, 2009 Author Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) There is such a thing called: SOLID STATE WATER that has the properties I discussed in a previous posting. The way of making this SSW is based on the same principal I discussed in my earlier thread. The method described here is that water vapor is exposed to a very cold substrate and the water vapor changes to a solid state rapidly enough so that those permanent hydogen bonds that exist in the thus formed solidified water exist in the same ratio as water, more or less diorganized as opposed to the very well organized hydrogen bonds that exist in normal ice. For a well presented article discussing all this including charts and diagrams go to:[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice#phases ] . I wish to note that it was forum member: GDG that brought this wiki piece to my attention and I thank him for doing that. Regards, ...Dr.Syntax Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedI am not sure which wikipedia website best describes my previous speculations. I viewed a number of the different links provided there. Thanks to fellow forum member Klynos this one was presented to me. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high_density_amorphous_ice ]. The section discussing : " hyper quenched glassy water most closely resembles what I had in mind. So as to leave no doubt in anyone`s mind: I quite obviously did NOT come up with any new concept or original discovery as I previously said I may or might have. Sincerely, ...Dr.Syntax Edited October 24, 2009 by dr.syntax
insane_alien Posted October 25, 2009 Posted October 25, 2009 do we really need two threads on this topic?
dr.syntax Posted October 25, 2009 Author Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) No we don`t and there are three not two. You are a moderator. As far as I`m concerned you should keep the one thread titled " ALL ABOUT SOLID STATE WATER " posted in the classical physics subforum and bury the rest of them in the the trash forum or whatever it is called. I created the threads and you have my permission to do so if that is of any help to you in doing so. ...Dr.Syntax .... Please note I did not create the freeze people in liquid nitogen thread. There are the two as you stated. ...DS Edited October 25, 2009 by dr.syntax
insane_alien Posted October 25, 2009 Posted October 25, 2009 i'm a moderator? i'm pretty sure someone would have told me and i'd have some cool extra mod powers if that were the case. it's true i have been here a while but i only have powers in the IRC channel.
dr.syntax Posted October 25, 2009 Author Posted October 25, 2009 Oh well. wrong again. I`m on a real streak of some sort here. Sorry, ...Dr.Syntax
randomc Posted October 25, 2009 Posted October 25, 2009 The method that most closely relates to what I had previously described is called : " hyper quenched glassy water.This form of ice,solid water, is described as being very stable. ...Dr.Syntax According to this page http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/amorph.html about amorphous ice and glassy water you would need to extend your method to include higher pressure, in order to form high density glassy water from hyper quenched glassy water. This would presumably sink. I'm not sure it would be stable though because as far as i can make out its not in thermodynamic equilibrium, rather the change is just very slow. This is actually bugging the hell out of me because i don't understand how high density glassy water can be the most abundant form of ice in the universe and yet not in equilibrium. If its changing even minutely i would have thought the majority of ice would be in a more stable form, given the time span available. Anyway this graphic (from the above site) shows the neccesary conditions and processes to form various types of ice;
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