Should we treat the US Democrat/Republican parties as equally corrupt/depraved/etc

[npts2020]

Arlen Specter did just recently in April of this year:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlen_Specter

 

And hasn't changed a bit (he always was a little out of step with most of the republicans anyway).

[bascule]

And hasn't changed a bit (he always was a little out of step with most of the republicans anyway).

 

For what it's worth, he used to be a Democrat.

 

There was also Colorado's own Ben Nighthorse Campbell, who went from Democrat to Republican.

[ydoaPs]

WIZP7RnlIMQ

Ugh

[Phi for All]

Disgusting. You'd think some fair and balanced news organization would be blasting this all over the TV.

 

Have any of the liberal organizations (MoveOn.org, etc) done an infomercial on this? I don't watch much commercial TV.

[Mr Skeptic]

Disgusting, yes, but isn't that what filibustering means? People talk of filibustering a bill, never of filibustering a point.

[npts2020]

For what it's worth, he used to be a Democrat.

 

There was also Colorado's own Ben Nighthorse Campbell, who went from Democrat to Republican.

 

Those flipfloppers.

[bascule]

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/a/m/americandad/2010/03/an-open-letter-to-conservative.php?ref=recdc

 

This is a rather exhaustive and extensively sourced list of recent conservative hypocrisy, primarily surrounding their response to the healthcare bill. I challenge any Republicans/conservatives out there to make an equally exhaustive one for the Democrats

 

It's awfully easy to equate hypocrisy on one side to the other. "All politicians are hypocrites!" Yes and all people do bad things, so should we release all the criminals who are in jail?

 

The list also touches on the issues of hatred/prejudice. This is another area where I think few will challenge the assertion that the majority of racists/sexists/bigots/hatemongers in this country are conservatives, whereas liberals generally prefer ideas of equality between races/genders/etc.

 

Over the course of the past decade I have become strongly of the opinion that in the minds of many Republican congressmen, improving the country has taken a backseat to winning victories over the Democrats or trying to stop what they're doing. Call me biased, but I do not think this problem is nearly as bad on the Democratic side. The way the Republicans are acting now is childish, counterproductive, hypocritical, divorced from reality, and is certainly not helping the country.

 

Is there any way to move forward? Can something be done about the Republicans? Can they fix the problems with their party?

[ParanoiA]

Over the course of the past decade I have become strongly of the opinion that in the minds of many Republican congressmen' date=' improving the country has taken a backseat to winning victories over the Democrats or trying to stop what they're doing. Call me biased, but I do not think this problem is nearly as bad on the Democratic side. The way the Republicans are acting now is childish, counterproductive, hypocritical, divorced from reality, and is certainly not helping the country.

 

Is there any way to move forward? Can something be done about the Republicans? Can they fix the problems with their party?[/quote']

 

Seriously? Never in my life did I ever question the sanity of the democratic party when they say no to war, no to tax breaks for business, no to trampling civil liberties - never would I have thought to say "What's wrong with these guys?"

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with the republicans except their philosophy differs from yours. We would ask what's wrong with the republican party if they suddenly signed on to socialistic ideas - like TARP (and we did). We would ask what's wrong if they agreed to wholesale theft by taxation for all their little pet things they care about (and we did).

 

I hope they continue saying no to every stupid idea by this democratic congress and socialistic president. That's consistent with their ideology. It would be weird, and suspicious if they didn't oppose everything coming out of this mess.

 

I would like to see Obama keep his promise and stop the feds from raiding Colorado marijuana dispenseries and coffee houses (or whatever they're calling them). I haven't heard him say anything else that I'd like him to succeed at. There may be something, but thus far all I'm hearing is more federal level control over the private sector, so I hope he fails miserably. (But I'm afraid he won't. People love hating the rich minority, so they will continue to be blamed for all of our problems, disparaged in pop-culture, so we can continue in the american tradition of kicking minority groups that we have rationalized to hate. The republicans do with with gay folks, the democrats do this with the rich.)

 

The financial crisis and the "culture of greed" will be used for the next phase of expanded federal power over the private sector. Supposedly there is a bill floating around that will give the executive the power to seize a business that they merely "believe" is about to fail and will cause "systemic" damage - liquidate it completely. We'll see if there's any truth to that. Sounds like a logical step for TARP lovers to me. But the point is, the republicans are being counted on to say 'no' to such an idea.

 

It's sad when I have to actually depend on big government lovers to check big government lovers.

[ecoli]

Anybody who thinks that republicans are more/less corrupt than democrats (or vice versa) should familiarize themselves with the concept of cognitive biases. Especially:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_correlation

[bascule]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the republicans except their philosophy differs from yours.

 

That's an easy statement to make, especially as a conservative, but when you make it I have to ask... what do you make of that exhaustively sourced list?

 

Anybody who thinks that republicans are more/less corrupt than democrats (or vice versa) should familiarize themselves with the concept of cognitive biases. Especially:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_correlation

 

That said, perhaps you could share your opinion on the exhaustively sourced list I linked.

[ecoli]

That said, perhaps you could share your opinion on the exhaustively sourced list I linked.

 

I think republican politicians should be ashamed of themselves. I think that there is probably a difference in the people who vote republican vs democrat, but assuming that Democrat politician are somehow inherently more corruption proof or less slimeball-y, could be due to well known cognitive biases.

 

A democrat will look at that list (which I'm not disputing, you understand) and their preconceived notions of republican evilness will be confirmed. Anecdotally, I see this happening a lot lately on my facebook feed as my very liberal friends and family are posting a consistent stream of stories that make republicans look bad (rightfully so, but I've never seen them post a negative story about a democrat politician).

 

And so what about your list?

 

If I found or compiled a list that was shorter than yours (about the democrats) would that make them not as bad? How do you quantify political evilness in an objective way so you could reasonably conclude that one party was worse than the other?

 

It seems likely to me that there's an observation bias going on. People only pay attention to the news that they already know they'll agree with (or filter out stories they don't like) and that plays into their confirmation biases. Then, they'll conclude that there's a correlation going on and create a causative narrative to put a story behind a nonexistent correlation. This makes sense if you understand how people identify with political parties... which is pretty much through branding (Michigan model)

 

This is what I suspect is happening. Perhaps there's legitimate data which would back this up, but I haven't seen any.

 

I would like to avoid believing a narrative that could very easily be caused by collective cognitive biases.

Edited March 25, 2010 by ecoli

[bascule]

A democrat will look at that list (which I'm not disputing, you understand) and their preconceived notions of republican evilness will be confirmed.

 

[...]

 

I would like to avoid believing a narrative that could very easily be caused by collective cognitive biases.

 

Well, you're not a Democrat. When you look at that list, do you see similar things happening to a similar degree on the Democratic side? Or do you feel such behavior is much more common among Republicans?

[ParanoiA]

That's an easy statement to make, especially as a conservative, but when you make it I have to ask... what do you make of that exhaustively sourced list?

 

I have no idea what conservative you're referring to, but I don't make much of the list. The list is really only valuable to those of you invested in a side keeping score on who's putting one over on the american people. Have fun with it.

 

"The other guy did it" partisan routine I see you post so much is a tired old argument technique that fails so awfully because it excuses bad behavior and bad logic by simply checking to see if it is being mirrored by "the other side", instead of checking to see if it is right.

 

Competition psychology at the expense of right and wrong is nothing to be admired in really any subject I can think of. Is there something about it you find moving?

 

Can I kill random people if someone else is killilng even more random people?

 

It's a cute list. And I'm sure, somewhere out there, someone is compiling a democratic one, or maybe they're not, and maybe democrats are really less corrupt and all that....so what?

[bascule]

It's a cute list. And I'm sure, somewhere out there, someone is compiling a democratic one, or maybe they're not, and maybe democrats are really less corrupt and all that....so what?

 

So what? We have a serious problem with the leadership of this country, that's what.

[Mr Skeptic]

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/a/m/americandad/2010/03/an-open-letter-to-conservative.php?ref=recdc

 

This is a rather exhaustive and extensively sourced list of recent conservative hypocrisy, primarily surrounding their response to the healthcare bill. I challenge any Republicans/conservatives out there to make an equally exhaustive one for the Democrats

 

To put it another way, here is a long list of recent Republican hypocrisy, and no one here can post a long list of recent Democrat hypocrisy, either because they are too lazy and its so much easier to rely on personal opinion, or because no such list exists.

[Phi for All]

That said, perhaps you could share your opinion on the exhaustively sourced list I linked.

I keep getting "We're experiencing unprecedented traffic, please try again later!" from that link. Obviously, republicans everywhere are flooding the site to confirm all the talk of hypocrisy they've been hearing lately.

[ecoli]

Well, you're not a Democrat. When you look at that list, do you see similar things happening to a similar degree on the Democratic side? Or do you feel such behavior is much more common among Republicans?

I think you missed my point. This is exactly the type of question that I don't want to ask myself.

 

The first question is "do you see similar things?" This is asking the things I'm observing in the media. Not the things that are actually happening. I don't pay attention to all the political corruption stories out there, nor does the media report on or even know about all of them.

 

"Do I feel such behavior..."

 

I don't want to base my opinions on feelings... what does the data say, if such data exists? If it doesn't I don't want to form biased opinions based on anecdotal and circumstantial observations and form an arbitrary narrative based on my existing biases.

 

I know I have biases... why should I try to confirm them based on irrational thinking? That's something I'm actively trying to avoid.

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To put it another way, here is a long list of recent Republican hypocrisy, and no one here can post a long list of recent Democrat hypocrisy, either because they are too lazy and its so much easier to rely on personal opinion, or because no such list exists.

 

I really don't think that's what he meant. I disagree with bascule's politics, sometimes, and I'm not interesting in spreading biased heuristics, but I don't think we should be putting words in his mouth either.

 

I'm pretty sure bascule would be genuinely interested in comparing a comprehensive list of Democrat pol's corruption. I would still warn him against trying to draw any meaningful conclusion from a non-rigorous comparison, however.

Edited March 25, 2010 by ecoli
Consecutive posts merged.

[Mr Skeptic]

Sayth the allknowing googles:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22list+of+democrat+hypocrisy%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Your search -

"list of democrat hypocrisy"

- did not match any documents.

 

Suggestions:

 

* Make sure all words are spelled correctly.

* Try different keywords.

* Try more general keywords.

 

I know Democrats play the hypocrisy game too, but maybe the Republicans never bothered to compile a list. Lord knows they prefer personal experience to compiled facts. Yes I have seen them complain a bit about specific examples of Democrat hypocrisy, and from there accuse them of large-scale hypocrisy, but I could find no list of it.

[ParanoiA]

So what? We have a serious problem with the leadership of this country, that's what.

 

I agree. And he's a democrat. Now what?

 

Just kidding...I know what you meant.

[ecoli]

Lord knows they prefer personal experience to compiled facts.

 

Maybe we should rename this thread "display your political cognitive biases"

 

Did the "Lord" give you special insight into this phenomenon or is it based on something more substantial? A compiled list of facts, perhaps?

[Mr Skeptic]

From personal experience, of course

[swansont]

I can't recall the dems reacting in this fashion recently when they didn't get their way

 

"GOP Senators Refusing To Work Past 2PM, Invoking Obscure Rule"

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/gop-senators-refusing-to_n_511639.html

[jryan]

LIst of Democrat hypocrits

 

And then there is ...

 

a short list of more liberal hypocrits:

 

# California Democrat Nancy Pelosi receives large-scale financial support from organized labor – while she and her husband own a vineyard and stakes in a hotel and a restaurant chain that are all non-union shops.

# "Environmentalist" Pelosi also has a stake in a posh country club that skirted environmental protection provisions.

# Ted Kennedy fights for the estate tax and rails against tax shelters – while benefiting from trusts and private foundations that have shielded most of his family’s fortune from the IRS.

# The deeply personal reason why Kennedy opposed a plan to provide clean alternative energy to Cape Cod.

# Robert Kennedy Jr. proclaims that it’s not moral to profit from natural resources, but receives an annual check from his family’s oil profits.

# Al Franken attacks conservatives because they "lack diversity," yet less than 1 percent of the employees he has hired over the past 15 years were African-American.

# Socialist radical Noam Chomsky charges that the Pentagon is the "most hideous institution on earth" – while being paid millions by the Pentagon over the last 40 years.

# Ralph Nader says unions are essential to protect worker rights – but fired his employees when they tried to form a union.

# Barbra Streisand urges Americans to cut back on their conspicuous consumption – while spending $22,000 a year to water her lawn.

# Billionaire George Soros maintains that the wealthy should pay higher tax rates, but holds the bulk of his fortune in tax-free overseas accounts.

# Hillary Clinton says 13-year-old girls are capable of deciding to have abortions without parental consent – but prevented her 13-year-old daughter from getting her ears pierced.

# Why Schweizer – who spent two years researching liberal hypocrisy – calls his discoveries "stunning."

 

.... as well as....

 

Here's a gay conservative that keeps a blog about liberal hypocrisy

 

and...

 

LA Times article about hypocritical Democrat tax cheats

 

And there's plenty more from a quick Google search. Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

But an interesting point on hypocrisy... while there are long lists of hypocrites on both sides is hypocrisy actually an inherently BAD thing? I have often seen hypocrisy used on both sides to show how the underlying ideology is faulty, but to me that seems counter intuitive.

 

If I were a smoker and told my children to never smoke I would be a hypocrite while my teaching would be sound.

 

For hypocrisy to actually be BAD you have to first believe that the underlying rule that the person is breaking is unsound. Not paying taxes, for example, is hypocritical for a liberal who believes in high taxes, but is only wrong because, whether the tax is right or wrong, we all believe we should pay our taxes.

 

So in this way we all seem to have it backwards. Liberals should be demonizing LIBERALS for their hypocrisy, and Republicans demonize Republicans when the hypocrisy is strictly ideological. Where we can both agree on a hypocrisy being bad is also where we can all agree on what a proper behavior should be.

 

Maybe that is more for the philosophy thread, but I figured since we pulling out yard sticks here we ought to give some thought to what we are measuring.

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I can't recall the dems reacting in this fashion recently when they didn't get their way

 

"GOP Senators Refusing To Work Past 2PM, Invoking Obscure Rule"

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/gop-senators-refusing-to_n_511639.html

 

 

House Democrats literally lock out Republicans after Obama claims there will be transparency

 

Democrats turn off lights in house chambers and kill microphones to stop debate

 

And so on.

Edited March 25, 2010 by jryan
Consecutive posts merged.

[Sisyphus]

I know it's hardly the point, but some of those are not hypocrisy. For example, arguing that tax laws which benefit you should be changed is not hypocrisy. Really, all but Streissand are at least debatable, and a couple are just silly. (I'm not interested in debating them, though.)

Edited March 25, 2010 by Sisyphus

[jryan]

I know it's hardly the point, but some of those are not hypocrisy. For example, arguing that tax laws which benefit you should be changed is not hypocrisy.

 

Well no, and when you make a quick list like that there will be some that don't fit hypocrisy. Arguing that a tax law be changed to benefit you, on the other hand, would be hypocrisy if you are a tax-happy liberal.

 

But there is still plenty there that is hypocritical.